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Episode 122 – Gideon Enok

By |2026-07-16T04:26:31+00:00July 16th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Pilgrim Spirit: What Happens When You Say Yes to the Journey

What would happen if you stopped waiting for the “right time” and simply took the first step?

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with author, modern-day pilgrim, and global traveler Gideon Enok to discuss one of the most remarkable journeys I’ve ever heard. After life unexpectedly came to a halt during the global pandemic, Gideon packed a backpack and began walking more than 7,000 kilometers across Europe toward Santiago de Compostela.

While many people would see this as an incredible physical challenge, Gideon describes it as something much deeper—a journey of healing, self-discovery, faith, and learning to trust the unknown.

His story is a reminder that sometimes our greatest transformations begin not with a perfectly crafted plan, but with the courage to simply take the next step.

Life Doesn’t Always Give You a Roadmap

Like many entrepreneurs and professionals, Gideon found himself facing unexpected change. The pandemic disrupted life around the world, relationships changed, businesses slowed, and uncertainty became the new normal.

Instead of allowing those circumstances to define him, he chose movement over stagnation.

That decision became the beginning of a five-month pilgrimage that would reshape his understanding of success, purpose, and fulfillment.

One of the themes we often discuss on AnnaCovert.com is that growth rarely happens inside our comfort zone. Gideon’s story is a perfect example of what becomes possible when we choose courage over certainty.

The Three Phases of Transformation

During our conversation, Gideon shared what he calls the three phases every pilgrim experiences.

The first is physical.

When you begin walking day after day, your body must adapt to the challenge.

The second phase is mental.

As distractions disappear, emotions begin to surface. Old fears, stress, grief, frustration, and limiting beliefs often rise to the surface because there is finally space to process them.

The final phase is spiritual.

This isn’t necessarily about religion. Instead, it’s about reconnecting with yourself, discovering inner peace, and recognizing that many of the answers you’ve been searching for were already within you.

Whether you’re walking across Europe or navigating a challenging season in business, these same phases often appear in our own lives.

Slowing Down Can Help You Move Forward

One of my favorite moments from our conversation centered around the idea that slowing down is not the same as falling behind.

In today’s world we’re constantly encouraged to move faster, produce more, and stay connected every waking moment.

But Gideon discovered something different.

Walking created space.

Without constant notifications, meetings, and distractions, he found greater clarity about his purpose and the direction he wanted his life to take.

That lesson extends far beyond a pilgrimage.

Many entrepreneurs, executives, and business owners find their best ideas during quiet moments—not while staring at another screen.

The Power of Surrender

Another powerful lesson from Gideon’s journey was learning the difference between surrender and giving up.

Too often we associate surrender with weakness.

Gideon sees it differently.

Surrender means releasing the need to control every outcome while continuing to move forward with intention.

It means trusting the process even when you cannot yet see the destination.

That mindset applies equally to entrepreneurship, leadership, relationships, and personal growth.

Self-Respect Changes Everything

Throughout the conversation, Gideon returned to one important idea: self-respect.

When we respect ourselves, we make better decisions.

We establish healthier boundaries.

We become less reactive to outside opinions.

We stop living according to other people’s expectations and begin creating lives aligned with our own values.

That shift influences every area of life—from career decisions to business leadership to personal relationships.

The Pilgrim Mindset

You don’t have to walk thousands of kilometers to embrace the pilgrim spirit.

Anyone can begin adopting the mindset Gideon describes.

Stay curious.

Remain present.

Trust yourself.

Spend time in nature.

Slow down enough to hear your own thoughts.

Continue taking the next step, even when you don’t yet know where the path leads.

These principles have the power to transform not only our businesses but our lives.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear my full conversation with Gideon Enok about resilience, mindfulness, the Camino de Santiago, faith, purpose, and the life-changing lessons of becoming a modern-day pilgrim, listen to this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

You can learn more about Gideon, download a free chapter of his book, and explore his work by visiting The Pilgrim Spirit. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn, follow him on Instagram, or watch his videos on YouTube.

🎧 LISTEN ON ALL PLATFORMS:
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🌐 FOLLOW THE COVERT CODE:
Website: https://thecovertcode.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/covertcodeofficial
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecovertcode
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/covert-code-official/

📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

ANNA’S WEBSITES:
The Covert Code: https://thecovertcode.com/
Anna Covert: https://annacovert.com/
Covert Communication: https://covertcommunication.com/
Reactium: https://reactium.io/

⚠️ Affiliate Disclosure: Some links included may be affiliate links, which means we may earn a commission if you choose to make a purchase through them at no additional cost to you.

Transcript: The Pilgrim Spirit — What Happens When You Say Yes to the Journey

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Gideon Enok

Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha! My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is The Pilgrim Spirit: What Happens When You Say Yes to the Journey.

Anna Covert [00:00:23]: My very special guest is Gideon Enok, a global traveler, author, and modern-day pilgrim who has trekked more than 7,000 kilometers across multiple countries in search of purpose, growth, and a deeper understanding of what really happens when you simply keep moving forward.

Anna Covert [00:00:43]: In his book, The Pilgrim Spirit, Gideon chronicles a five-month journey across Europe during the global pandemic and shares the life-changing lessons he learned along the way.

Anna Covert [00:00:56]: Today we'll be talking about adventure, resilience, trusting the unknown, and what it really means to follow your heart—not only in life, but in business.

Anna Covert [00:01:07]: Gideon, thank you so much for joining me today.

Gideon Enok [00:01:10]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

From Sales to Self-Discovery

Anna Covert: Let's start at the beginning. Before you became this modern-day pilgrim, what did life look like? What were you doing, and what ultimately led you down this path?

Gideon Enok: Everything really started around 2009. I attended a personal development seminar that completely shifted my perspective. The following Monday I went to work, sat down at my sales job, and something inside me had changed. It felt like my entire worldview had shifted overnight.

Gideon Enok: I became fascinated with personal growth, entrepreneurship, mindset, and understanding how our conscious and subconscious minds influence our lives.

Gideon Enok: I started reading everything I could find. I became obsessed with learning and discovering what was possible beyond simply working every day.

Gideon Enok: Toward the end of that year, I made a poor investment and lost a significant amount of money. At the same time, my former boss had moved to Australia after losing his own job.

Gideon Enok: I reached a point where I realized I needed to completely change my environment.

Gideon Enok: Within forty-two days, I sold or gave away nearly everything I owned, packed a backpack, and moved to Perth, Australia.

Anna Covert: Did you ever think you'd return to Denmark?

Gideon Enok: At the time, honestly, no. I told my parents at the airport that I wasn't coming back. I believed I was starting an entirely new life.

The Pandemic Changed Everything

Anna Covert: Fast forward to 2020. The world shuts down. You're back in Europe, going through a difficult breakup, and life feels uncertain. What happened?

Gideon Enok: I found myself living alone in a small farmhouse, feeling stuck and deeply unhappy. One morning I woke up knowing something had to change.

Gideon Enok: I sat down to meditate for several hours. Afterward, I felt an urge to walk to the ocean, about ten kilometers away.

Gideon Enok: Standing there looking across the water, I heard what felt like a clear voice asking, "Why don't you walk from Denmark to Santiago?"

Gideon Enok: It startled me because it felt incredibly real.

Gideon Enok: A couple of weeks later, I trusted that intuition, packed my backpack, and began walking toward Santiago de Compostela.

Walking Into the Unknown

Anna Covert: What were you hoping to find?

Gideon Enok: Honestly, I didn't know.

Gideon Enok: I simply believed the journey would change my life. I trusted that feeling completely.

Gideon Enok: Looking back, that trust became one of the greatest lessons of the entire pilgrimage.

Why Walking Changes Us

Anna Covert: There are so many people today who feel overwhelmed by uncertainty. We have technology, global conflict, social media, and constant distractions.

Anna Covert: What did walking teach you about navigating uncertainty?

Gideon Enok: Walking reconnects us with something incredibly ancient.

Gideon Enok: Human beings have always walked. We explored the world on foot long before modern transportation existed.

Gideon Enok: When we slow down enough to walk day after day, something inside us begins slowing down too.

Gideon Enok: We spend so much time on computers, phones, and social media that our minds rarely get a chance to rest.

Gideon Enok: Walking restores that balance.

The Three Phases of the Camino

Gideon Enok: In my book, I describe what I call the three phases of the Camino.

Gideon Enok: The first phase is physical.

Gideon Enok: During the first ten to fourteen days, your body simply adapts to walking every day while carrying everything you own.

Gideon Enok: Once your body adjusts, you enter the second phase, which is mental.

Gideon Enok: That's where many of your emotional burdens begin surfacing.

Gideon Enok: As you continue walking, you release stress, trauma, frustration, grief, anger, and everything you've been carrying for years.

Gideon Enok: It isn't always comfortable.

Gideon Enok: There were days when I cried.

Gideon Enok: There were days when I became frustrated.

Gideon Enok: There were moments when I questioned everything.

Gideon Enok: But continuing to walk became part of the healing process.

Gideon Enok: Eventually, you arrive at what I call the spiritual phase.

Gideon Enok: That's where you begin feeling connected again—to yourself, to other people, and to something larger than yourself.

Gideon Enok: Many people reconnect with loved ones, forgive old wounds, or discover a deeper sense of peace during this phase.

Anna Covert: I love that because it feels very similar to life itself.

Gideon Enok: Exactly. I often say these aren't only the three phases of the Camino.

Gideon Enok: They're the three phases we often experience throughout life.

Meditation, Walking, and Mental Clarity

Anna Covert: One of the themes that kept coming up throughout your journey was meditation. How did that become such an important part of your life?

Gideon Enok: Meditation taught me how to observe my thoughts instead of becoming controlled by them. When you're walking eight or ten hours a day, your mind has nowhere to hide. Eventually the constant mental chatter begins to quiet, and you start hearing your intuition much more clearly.

Gideon Enok: I often tell people that walking itself became my meditation. Every step became part of the practice.

Anna Covert: That's beautiful because so many people think meditation means sitting perfectly still for an hour.

Gideon Enok: Exactly. Meditation can happen while you're walking, breathing, or simply becoming fully present. The important part is learning to become aware of your thoughts instead of constantly reacting to them.

Writing The Pilgrim Spirit

Anna Covert: At what point did you know this journey would become a book?

Gideon Enok: I didn't know at the beginning.

Gideon Enok: I was journaling every day because I wanted to remember what I was experiencing. The more I wrote, the more I realized these lessons weren't only helping me—they might help other people too.

Gideon Enok: Eventually those journals became the foundation for The Pilgrim Spirit.

Gideon Enok: My hope is that readers don't simply read about my journey. I hope they begin their own.

The Eight Principles of the Pilgrim

Anna Covert: Your book shares what you call the Eight Principles of the Pilgrim. Tell us about those.

Gideon Enok: Those principles came directly from the experiences I had while walking.

Gideon Enok: They aren't theories. They're lessons earned through thousands of kilometers on the trail.

Gideon Enok: They include trust, surrender, presence, gratitude, courage, self-respect, service, and faith.

Gideon Enok: None of these principles are mastered overnight. They become lifelong practices.

Anna Covert: I love that they aren't just ideas—they're things people can actually practice.

Gideon Enok: Exactly. Wisdom only matters when we apply it.

Learning to Surrender

Anna Covert: One word that came up repeatedly throughout your story was surrender. I think people sometimes confuse surrender with giving up.

Gideon Enok: They are completely different.

Gideon Enok: Giving up means losing hope.

Gideon Enok: Surrender means letting go of trying to control every outcome.

Gideon Enok: During the pilgrimage I couldn't control the weather, where I would sleep every night, or who I would meet.

Gideon Enok: The more I trusted the journey, the more life seemed to meet me exactly where I needed it to.

Anna Covert: That's something entrepreneurs struggle with too. We spend so much time trying to control everything.

Gideon Enok: Absolutely. Sometimes our greatest opportunities appear after we release the need to control every step.

The Importance of Self-Respect

Anna Covert: Another topic that really resonated with me was self-respect.

Gideon Enok: Self-respect changes everything.

Gideon Enok: Many people spend their lives trying to earn respect from others while forgetting to respect themselves.

Gideon Enok: Healthy boundaries, honesty, keeping promises to yourself, and treating yourself with kindness are all expressions of self-respect.

Gideon Enok: Once you truly respect yourself, your relationships begin changing naturally.

The Unexpected Kindness of Strangers

Anna Covert: Throughout your journey you encountered incredible generosity from complete strangers.

Gideon Enok: Yes.

Gideon Enok: One experience in Belgium really stayed with me.

Gideon Enok: I had nowhere to stay that evening and wasn't sure what I was going to do.

Gideon Enok: Someone I had never met welcomed me into their home without expecting anything in return.

Gideon Enok: Moments like that reminded me that people are fundamentally good.

Gideon Enok: We hear so much negative news every day, but my experience walking across Europe showed me tremendous kindness from complete strangers.

Faith, Intention, and Imagination

Anna Covert: We also talked about imagination and faith.

Gideon Enok: Everything begins in imagination.

Gideon Enok: Before we create something physically, we first create it mentally.

Gideon Enok: Faith isn't pretending everything will be easy.

Gideon Enok: Faith is continuing forward even when you cannot yet see the destination.

Anna Covert: That's a powerful way to describe entrepreneurship as well.

Gideon Enok: Absolutely. Every entrepreneur walks through uncertainty.

Finding Love Along the Journey

Anna Covert: One unexpected outcome of your pilgrimage was meeting your future wife.

Gideon Enok: Yes.

Gideon Enok: Had I never begun walking, our paths likely never would have crossed.

Gideon Enok: Looking back, it's another reminder that saying yes to one courageous decision often opens doors we never could have planned.

Advice for Someone Feeling Stuck

Anna Covert: If someone listening feels stuck today, what's the first piece of advice you'd give them?

Gideon Enok: Start moving.

Gideon Enok: You don't have to walk across Europe.

Gideon Enok: Go outside.

Gideon Enok: Take a walk.

Gideon Enok: Sit quietly.

Gideon Enok: Listen.

Gideon Enok: Often the answers we're searching for begin appearing once we slow down enough to hear them.

How to Connect with Gideon

Anna Covert: Where can people learn more about your work?

Gideon Enok: The best place is my website, ThePilgrimSpirit.com.

Gideon Enok: People can download a free chapter of the book, learn more about my journey, connect with me on LinkedIn and Instagram, or follow my YouTube channel where I continue sharing lessons from the pilgrimage.

Closing Thoughts

Anna Covert: Gideon, thank you so much for joining me today. I truly enjoyed this conversation.

Gideon Enok: Thank you. It was a pleasure being here.

Anna Covert: And thank you to all of our listeners for joining us for another episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

Anna Covert: If you haven't already, please subscribe and share this episode with someone who could use a reminder that sometimes the most important journey is simply taking the next step.

Anna Covert: Until next time, I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels.

Anna Covert: Aloha.

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Episode 121 – Gina Riley

By |2026-07-14T20:12:24+00:00July 8th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Why Qualified Isn’t Enough: How to Stand Out and Land Executive Opportunities

The job market has changed.

Being qualified still matters, but it is no longer enough to guarantee opportunity.

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with executive career strategist Gina Riley for her second appearance on the show. Gina is the founder of Gina Riley Consulting, a LinkedIn Top Voice, and the author of the Amazon best-selling book Qualified Isn’t Enough.

In our conversation, Gina shared why job seekers, especially executives and senior leaders, can no longer afford to play small. Between longer hiring cycles, more competition, AI-driven applications, and shifting recruiter behavior, professionals need more than a polished resume. They need visibility, credibility, and a clear point of view.

The Job Market Is More Competitive Than Ever

Gina explained that leadership roles are becoming increasingly competitive. There are fewer roles at the top, more candidates competing for them, and hiring cycles that can stretch for months.

For senior leaders, a four-month hiring process can actually be considered fast. In many cases, opportunities may take six, twelve, or even eighteen months to fully develop.

That is why relying only on online applications is no longer an effective strategy, especially for executives.

Gina recommends that senior leaders spend the majority of their effort building relationships, networking, and gaining referrals rather than simply applying online and hoping to be noticed.

Qualifications Get You Considered. Visibility Creates Opportunity.

One of the strongest takeaways from this episode was Gina’s reminder that qualifications are only the starting point.

Your experience proves capability.

Your qualifications get you considered.

But your visibility creates opportunity.

This is especially true in a noisy marketplace where resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and job applications are beginning to sound increasingly similar because of AI-generated content.

As we often discuss on AnnaCovert.com, personal branding is not about ego. It is about clarity, trust, and making it easier for the right people to understand the value you bring.

Why Professionals Cannot Afford to Play Small

Playing small can show up in many ways.

It can look like waiting to be noticed.

It can look like avoiding visibility because you do not want to appear self-promotional.

It can look like only posting on LinkedIn when you need a job.

It can also look like allowing imposter syndrome to keep you from sharing your expertise.

Gina made an important distinction: strategic visibility is not the same as self-promotion.

Strategic visibility is about sharing helpful insights, mentoring others, contributing to your professional community, and demonstrating the value you create.

LinkedIn Is Not Just an Online Resume

One of the biggest mistakes Gina sees professionals make is treating LinkedIn like a static resume.

LinkedIn is much more than that.

It is a professional marketing platform.

Your profile should clearly communicate who you are, what you do, what problems you solve, and what kind of impact you create.

That means having a strong headline, a clear about section, an updated profile photo, and a banner that supports your professional positioning.

But beyond the profile itself, Gina emphasized the importance of using LinkedIn as a place to share thought leadership. Short posts, videos, lessons learned, professional insights, and helpful commentary can all help build credibility over time.

AI Can Help, But It Can Also Make You Sound Generic

AI is changing the job search process on both sides.

Job seekers are using AI to write resumes, cover letters, LinkedIn profiles, and application materials. Employers and recruiters are also using technology to filter, organize, and evaluate candidates.

Gina’s warning is clear: if you let AI write your brand without your own authentic input, you risk sounding like everyone else.

AI can be incredibly useful for brainstorming, organizing ideas, preparing for interviews, and helping job seekers think through their stories. But it should not replace the deeper work of understanding your value proposition.

That deeper work includes knowing your strengths, your leadership style, your career themes, your results, and the specific impact you have created.

Impact Matters More Than Responsibilities

Another important theme from our conversation was the difference between responsibilities and impact.

Many professionals describe what they were responsible for.

But recruiters and hiring teams want to know what changed because you were there.

Did you increase revenue?

Did you improve efficiency?

Did you reduce costs?

Did you lead a team through change?

Did you build something new?

Gina recommends framing career stories around results, action, and situation. This helps candidates lead with measurable outcomes instead of simply listing duties.

Executive Presence Still Matters

In a world shaped by digital tools and AI, human presence still matters deeply.

Gina discussed how eye contact, communication style, confidence, emotional intelligence, and the ability to read a room all contribute to executive presence.

These are the qualities that cannot be fully captured on a resume.

They show up in conversations, interviews, networking meetings, presentations, and leadership moments.

For executives, technical qualifications may open the door, but presence and trust often determine whether the opportunity moves forward.

Build Your Network Before You Need It

One of Gina’s strongest pieces of advice was to build relationships before you are actively job searching.

When professionals wait until they are in transition to start networking, the process can feel awkward or transactional.

But when you consistently contribute, support others, share ideas, and stay visible within your industry, your network becomes a long-term career asset.

As Gina explained, the best opportunities often come through relationships, referrals, and professional reputation.

The Future Belongs to Visible Leaders

This episode was a powerful reminder that the job market rewards more than credentials.

It rewards clarity.

It rewards confidence.

It rewards relationships.

It rewards visibility.

For executives and professionals who want to grow their careers, the message is clear: stop waiting to be discovered.

Start showing people what you know, how you think, and the value you bring.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear the full conversation with Gina Riley, visit The Covert Code Podcast.

You can learn more about Gina at Gina Riley Consulting, connect with her on LinkedIn, or explore her book Qualified Isn’t Enough on Amazon.

🎧 LISTEN ON ALL PLATFORMS:
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🌐 FOLLOW THE COVERT CODE:
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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

ANNA’S WEBSITES:
The Covert Code: https://thecovertcode.com/
Anna Covert: https://annacovert.com/
Covert Communication: https://covertcommunication.com/
Reactium: https://reactium.io/

⚠️ Affiliate Disclosure: Some links included may be affiliate links, which means we may earn a commission if you choose to make a purchase through them at no additional cost to you.

Transcript: Why Qualified Isn't Enough — How to Stand Out and Land Executive Opportunities

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Gina Riley

Anna Covert [00:00:05]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is why job seekers can't afford to play small. My special guest is returning for her second Covert Code appearance, the amazing Gina Riley.

Anna Covert [00:00:25]: Gina is an executive career coach at Gina Riley Consulting. She is also known as a LinkedIn Top Voice and author of the Amazon bestseller Qualified Isn't Enough.

Anna Covert [00:00:40]: The last time Gina was on the show, we talked about why qualified isn't enough. I invited her back because people loved that episode so much, and with everything happening in the job market, I thought it was important for her to return and talk about why professionals can't afford to play small.

Anna Covert [00:00:58]: Welcome back to the show.

Gina Riley [00:01:00]: Thank you.

The Current Job Market

Anna Covert: Since your first appearance on The Covert Code, what have you seen in the job market that concerns you?

Gina Riley: The thing that concerns me most is that there is more competition now for fewer roles, especially fewer leadership roles. I work primarily with leaders, and when you look at the tip of the triangle, there are fewer jobs to begin with.

Gina Riley: With layoffs and company acquisitions, sometimes entire leadership teams are let go from acquired companies. There is a lot of competition and very long hiring cycles.

Gina Riley: When I start working with someone and they say they have an interview opportunity, I tell them they will be lucky to have an actual offer in four months if they are the top candidate. Four months is good. It can be six months, twelve months, or eighteen months as you go up the hierarchy.

Gina Riley: It is much more important now to demonstrate your impact and not just rely on a stale resume. AI is also making it easier to apply, which increases competition, but it can also reduce differentiation.

AI and Online Applications

Anna Covert: With all these applicants and AI tools, people can have a professional look, but then everyone starts to sound the same. Are we still seeing AI reading applications?

Gina Riley: If a person is a true executive or senior leader aiming for higher-level jobs, they should spend only a tiny fraction of their time applying online.

Gina Riley: That means they are not worrying as much about whether AI is reading their resume. They should be doubling down. Ninety-five percent of their effort should be on relationship building, networking, and gaining referrals.

Gina Riley: Applying online is valid, but for senior leaders, even a five percent response rate is better than average. Often, people are not being seen in those systems, and it is not only AI's fault.

Gina Riley: It can be how the system is configured, how recruiters use the system, how AI reads and sorts content, or even how job seekers answer prequalifying questions.

Gina Riley: If a question asks whether you are willing to work for $150,000 and you say no because you want $250,000, you may be filtered out before the recruiter ever sees your application.

Qualifications, Experience, and Visibility

Anna Covert: What matters more today: qualifications, experience, or visibility?

Gina Riley: Qualifications get you considered. They are the minimum bar to entry. Experience proves your capability. But visibility is what creates your opportunity.

Gina Riley: If you are not being seen, you are not getting heard. You have to get seen to get heard.

Gina Riley: But if you are sharing visibility without creating value through your thought leadership and helpfulness, then you are just making noise. You want to be visible while adding value.

Why Leaders Can't Play Small

Anna Covert: Let's talk about the idea of playing small. For a long time, leadership was hidden behind the company. Now that seems to be changing.

Gina Riley: Leaders have to step up, and they needed to do it yesterday. There is a fear of appearing self-promotional, but when you focus on the value you offer and the impact you make, you can have a positive impact without being self-promotional.

Gina Riley: The danger of playing small is waiting to get noticed. I call that getting plucked from obscurity. No one is coming to rescue you. You own your own career.

Gina Riley: Senior leaders can also suffer from imposter syndrome, which may hold them back from stepping out with thought leadership. It can cause people to retreat instead of expanding the relationships they need.

Imposter Syndrome and Unique Value

Anna Covert: A lot of this makes me think about limiting beliefs and whether people believe they deserve to be at the forefront. Is imposter syndrome common?

Gina Riley: I do not address imposter syndrome as a specific topic with my clients, but I do help alleviate it.

Gina Riley: In the first phase of my book, the first five chapters lay the groundwork. They help a person develop their unique value proposition brick by brick.

Gina Riley: How do we avoid imposter syndrome? By tapping into what makes us uniquely us: our natural talents, our approach to leadership, our unique career story, and the themes and patterns that show how good we are at what we do.

Gina Riley: We also build an impact and results repository that helps explain what you can do for an employer. You overcome imposter syndrome by getting grounded in why you are excellent at what you do.

Strategic Visibility

Anna Covert: Visibility does not just mean sitting in front of your computer and posting on LinkedIn. What are some ways people can become more visible without being salesy?

Gina Riley: I do love LinkedIn, and I am on it every day, but there are many ways to stay visible. You can share posts and insights about lessons you have learned. You can speak, mentor, volunteer, lead, and stay active in professional communities.

Gina Riley: I worked with a chief technology officer who thought he had nothing special to share. But he was leading 200 engineers, had been through M&A, and had consulting experience. He had content for days.

Gina Riley: Sometimes your first audience is your own employees and the people who already follow you and want to know you are credible and trustworthy.

Common Mistakes

Anna Covert: What are people doing that causes them to stay small or miss the mark?

Gina Riley: A major problem is overusing AI and diluting the actual brand. The materials may sound smart, but when people go to market, their own network cannot refer them because the messaging is confusing.

Gina Riley: Another mistake is relying too much on the resume. The resume is the leave-behind. The referral and the conversation are the lead.

Gina Riley: People also use generic profiles, fail to show a clear point of view, and only post on LinkedIn when they are job searching. That can feel awkward and transactional.

Breaking Through the Noise

Anna Covert: In marketing, sometimes you need breakout visibility techniques. For business owners, I have used FedEx campaigns because owners usually open those packages. Could job seekers do something similarly creative?

Gina Riley: I have not heard of many people doing that, but that is brilliant. I am taking notes in my mind.

Anna Covert: It feels like people need to take control back and not just be victims of the system.

Gina Riley: There is a defeatist mindset out there, but that does not serve the person who has it. My recommendation is to build a support team during that time.

Gina Riley: Do not allow your partner or spouse to be your only support. You may need a job seeker support group, a coach, accountability partners, or a small team of people who help you maintain hope and momentum.

Using AI for Career Growth

Anna Covert: What can people do to build new skills right now?

Gina Riley: AI is one of the biggest topics. People are taking classes and dabbling with AI, which is great. But do not just add a class to the bottom of your resume.

Gina Riley: You need to show how you are applying the knowledge and how you would use it to have impact. Think in dollar signs, percentages, numbers, increases, or decreases.

Gina Riley: Did you increase production? Did you decrease throughput time? What did you do with the AI? You need to demonstrate how you can use AI to accelerate the business.

LinkedIn as a Marketing Platform

Anna Covert: What are the biggest mistakes people make on LinkedIn when trying to position themselves for future opportunities?

Gina Riley: The first mistake is thinking of LinkedIn as your online resume. I think of it as your marketing storefront window.

Gina Riley: You need an updated profile, a banner with your value proposition, a good headshot, a headline that tells people what you do, and an about section that clearly explains what you do.

Gina Riley: I come from a recruiter perspective. I do not want the about section to begin with a long childhood story. I want to see what kind of leader you are immediately.

Gina Riley: Most importantly, treat LinkedIn as a broadcasting system where you share thought leadership, posts, and short-form video content.

Showing Impact

Gina Riley: Another mistake job seekers make, especially executives, is talking about responsibilities instead of impact.

Gina Riley: Do not just say you were responsible for something. Explain what you led, developed, created, increased, or improved.

Gina Riley: In my book, I talk about how to show impact using a framework called RAS: result, action, situation. Lead with the result, then explain the action and situation.

Making AI More Human

Anna Covert: One thing I am noticing with AI is the importance of thinking about how you want people to feel when they read something. Do you want them to feel that you are creative, innovative, reliable, or a team player?

Anna Covert: If you ask AI to consider the feeling you want the reader to have, the results change.

Gina Riley: That is so cool.

Rebuilding Professional Presence

Anna Covert: For someone who feels invisible within their organization or industry, what is the first step to rebuilding professional presence?

Gina Riley: First, get over the idea that you are being self-promotional.

Gina Riley: Shift your mindset from self-promotion to strategic visibility. Ask how you create value, how you help people, how you lead, and how you mentor.

Gina Riley: Can you teach me something rather than bragging about something? Can you share insights instead of only accomplishments?

Gina Riley: Visibility strategy is about how you can help other people.

Executive Presence and Interviewing

Anna Covert: AI can also be used for interview practice. You can ask it to interview you and ask more questions.

Gina Riley: Most of the work I do is in person because clients need to build their own stories. Ultimately, if you are an executive or leader, you will be in the room with human beings. You need authentic confidence to deliver those stories.

Gina Riley: Eye contact is also incredibly important. It is part of executive presence. I spoke with a very accomplished leader who did not look me in the eye for the first five minutes of our Zoom call. It makes the other person feel uncomfortable.

What Recruiters Are Looking For

Anna Covert: What should candidates be signaling to recruiters to stand out?

Gina Riley: You need to showcase adaptability, but you cannot just say you are adaptable. You need to show how you lead through change and help teams adapt.

Gina Riley: Emotional intelligence also matters. Organizations do not want to hire people who disrupt culture.

Gina Riley: You should also be able to influence across functions, even without positional power. Executive presence, change leadership, learning agility, and AI literacy are all important.

Gina Riley: For Gen X and younger boomers, the fear is relevance. You have to build a relevant story for yourself. No one is going to do that for you.

Global Trends and Career Risk

Anna Covert: Are global trends impacting the job market?

Gina Riley: I do not have one solid answer, but I do think many things affect leadership here in the U.S.

Gina Riley: One example is acquisitions. I have spoken with two CHROs this year whose companies were purchased by companies outside the country, and their entire leadership teams were let go.

Gina Riley: That is why people need to pay attention to their corporate environment, keep their LinkedIn profiles strong, have resumes ready, develop their stories, and continue networking.

What's Next for Gina

Anna Covert: What is next for you?

Gina Riley: My focus is on my private one-on-one coaching clients, delivering content for communities I am part of, and serving on the board of directors for the Intel Alumni Network.

Gina Riley: We have recorded sessions on YouTube where I guide conversations with experts or lead sessions myself. I am also building my private learning management system and converting my book chapters into an online course.

How to Connect with Gina

Anna Covert: How can people get ahold of you?

Gina Riley: GinaRileyConsulting.com. My email is Gina@GinaRileyConsulting.com, and I am on LinkedIn every day unless I am on vacation. I also write a newsletter and am about to start a Substack.

Closing

Anna Covert: Thank you so much for coming back. To all of my listeners, thank you for joining me again. If you have not subscribed yet, please do so. We are approaching 200,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha.

Anna Covert: Continue to share this content with your friends and family so I can bring more great guests like Gina back to share their wisdom with us. I cannot wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

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Episode 120 – Marty Fahncke

By |2026-07-14T20:08:51+00:00July 2nd, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Most business owners spend years building their companies.

Far fewer spend time preparing to eventually leave them.

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Certified Merger & Acquisition Advisor Marty Fahncke to discuss one of the most overlooked aspects of entrepreneurship: preparing your business for a successful exit.

Whether you plan to sell your company next year or twenty years from now, Marty believes every business owner should begin building with the end in mind. His experience advising companies through more than $500 million in mergers and acquisitions has shown him that businesses prepared for sale are often healthier, more profitable, and ultimately worth significantly more.

Exit Planning Starts Earlier Than You Think

One of the biggest misconceptions Marty sees is that exit planning begins when an owner decides to retire.

In reality, the process should begin years before a business ever goes to market.

The systems you build, the financial records you maintain, the management team you develop, and the relationships you create all contribute to the eventual value of your company.

Businesses that rely entirely on their founder are often much harder to sell because buyers aren’t simply purchasing products or services—they’re purchasing a system that can continue operating without the owner.

This idea aligns closely with many of the growth strategies we discuss on The Covert Code Podcast. Strong businesses are built on systems, documentation, and leadership—not dependency.

The Four Stages of Owner Exit

Marty explained that exiting a business doesn’t always mean selling it outright.

Owners have several options depending on their personal goals, financial objectives, and succession plans.

Some choose to sell to strategic buyers. Others transition ownership to family members, employees, or business partners. Some gradually step away while maintaining partial ownership.

The important point is having a plan before circumstances force one upon you.

Why Clean Financials Matter

One of the strongest messages from our conversation centered on financial transparency.

Many entrepreneurs attempt to minimize taxable income throughout the life of their business. While that may reduce taxes in the short term, it can also reduce the perceived value of the business during an acquisition.

Potential buyers evaluate financial performance carefully.

The cleaner and more organized your records are, the easier it becomes for buyers to understand the true earning potential of the business.

Preparing accurate financial statements years before selling can significantly increase buyer confidence.

Building a Company Buyers Want

Buyers aren’t simply purchasing revenue.

They’re purchasing predictable systems, reliable employees, repeatable processes, loyal customers, and future opportunities.

Marty shared that businesses become dramatically more valuable when they can operate without the owner’s daily involvement.

That requires documentation, delegation, leadership development, and scalable systems.

It’s one reason digital infrastructure has become increasingly important. Through our work at Covert Communication, we’ve seen firsthand how organized CRMs, marketing automation, analytics, and digital assets can strengthen a company’s overall value.

Growth Through Acquisition

While many entrepreneurs focus exclusively on organic growth, Marty discussed the strategic role acquisitions can play.

Buying complementary businesses can accelerate expansion, increase market share, and strengthen competitive positioning.

Successful acquisitions, however, require careful due diligence, cultural alignment, and a clear integration strategy.

Growth should never come at the expense of operational stability.

How AI May Impact Business Valuations

Artificial intelligence has become a recurring topic on The Covert Code Podcast, and this episode was no exception.

Marty believes AI will increasingly help buyers evaluate businesses by improving financial analysis, identifying operational risks, and streamlining due diligence.

At the same time, AI will likely reward companies with well-documented processes and organized data while exposing operational weaknesses that previously went unnoticed.

Owners who embrace technology today may find themselves better positioned for tomorrow’s acquisitions.

Build a Better Business by Building a Saleable Business

Perhaps the most valuable lesson from our conversation was this:

You don’t build a saleable business because you plan to sell.

You build a saleable business because it becomes a better business.

Companies with strong systems, healthy financials, documented processes, empowered leadership, and clear strategic direction perform better regardless of whether they are ever sold.

Preparing for an exit ultimately prepares your company for long-term success.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear my full conversation with Marty Fahncke about exit planning, mergers and acquisitions, business valuation, and building a company buyers want, listen to this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

You can learn more about Marty at Westbound Road, connect with him on LinkedIn, or follow him on Facebook.

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Transcript: Selling Your Business in Style — How to Maximize Value Before You Exit

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Marty Fahncke

Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is Selling Your Business in Style.

Anna Covert [00:00:18]: My very special guest is Marty Fahncke. He is a business investor, growth strategist, Certified Merger & Acquisition Advisor with Westbound Road LLC, and has more than 30 years of experience helping companies grow, scale, and ultimately sell.

Anna Covert [00:00:38]: Marty has worked with hundreds of companies that have collectively generated more than one billion dollars in revenue and has personally participated in over five hundred million dollars in mergers and acquisitions.

Anna Covert [00:00:52]: In his Amazon bestselling book, Boomers Sell the Business, he shares practical strategies business owners can use to increase the value of their companies before, during, and after an acquisition.

Anna Covert [00:01:02]: Marty, thank you so much for joining me today.

Marty Fahncke [00:01:05]: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I listened to a few episodes of your podcast, and I love the way you pull information out of your guests. I'm looking forward to sharing some great ideas today.

Anna Covert [00:01:18]: Thank you. Before we begin, if you're enjoying The Covert Code Podcast, please subscribe. We recently surpassed 200,000 subscribers, and that's because of you and your aloha. Let's dive in.

From Marketing to Mergers & Acquisitions

Anna Covert: We always begin with the Cliff Notes version. Tell us how you got from where you started to where you are today.

Marty Fahncke: I've spent most of my career in marketing. About twenty-five years ago I partnered with two other people and we started a business together. Roughly eighteen months later, someone offered us $1.5 million in cash for that business.

Marty Fahncke: At the time, we thought we were the smartest people in the world.

Marty Fahncke: Looking back, I later realized we had left nearly $24 million on the table because we didn't understand who was buying us, why they wanted the business, or how to properly negotiate the transaction.

Marty Fahncke: A few years later I was on the opposite side of the table. I had launched one of the early e-commerce businesses around 2000, and one of our competitors kept getting in our way.

Marty Fahncke: My CEO simply said, "Why don't you buy them?"

Marty Fahncke: I didn't even know what that process looked like, but I made the call. They wanted to sell.

Marty Fahncke: Our company was doing about $1.5 million in revenue. Their company was doing roughly $2 million. After acquiring and combining the businesses, our second-year revenue reached nearly $30 million.

Anna Covert: That's incredible.

Marty Fahncke: That experience taught me the incredible power of strategic acquisitions. One plus one doesn't always equal two. Sometimes one plus one equals eleven if you do it correctly.

Marty Fahncke: Ever since then I've been passionate about helping businesses grow through acquisition.

Why Marty Wrote "Boomers Sell the Business"

Anna Covert: What inspired you to finally write your book?

Marty Fahncke: I'd wanted to write a book for over twenty years, but never finished one. What finally pushed me over the finish line was watching business owners continually get caught unprepared when life forced them to exit their businesses.

Marty Fahncke: I began seeing what I call the "Five Ds and a B."

  • Divorce
  • Disease
  • Death
  • Debt
  • Disagreements
  • Burnout

Marty Fahncke: Every business owner will eventually exit their business somehow. Yet very few actually prepare for it.

Marty Fahncke: I received heartbreaking phone calls from owners diagnosed with cancer who suddenly couldn't operate their companies, spouses who unexpectedly passed away, and families who believed their business was worth millions only to discover it wasn't.

Marty Fahncke: I wanted to create a roadmap so owners wouldn't find themselves trapped without a plan.

Why Every Business Needs an Exit Strategy

Anna Covert: One thing I've heard repeatedly is that owners should begin preparing at least three years before selling.

Marty Fahncke: I completely agree. Three years is the minimum.

Marty Fahncke: Most buyers—and especially lenders like banks or the SBA—want to review at least three years of financial statements, tax returns, and bank records.

Marty Fahncke: If those records aren't organized, selling becomes much more difficult.

Marty Fahncke: But here's something important: even if you never intend to sell your business, you should still prepare it as if you might.

Marty Fahncke: A business with clean financials, documented systems, and leadership that doesn't rely entirely on the owner isn't just easier to sell—it's simply a better business to own.

Stay Ready

Anna Covert: In Hawaii we have a saying: "Stay ready."

Anna Covert: Whether you're surfing big waves or preparing for life's unexpected moments, you're always ready before the opportunity—or challenge—arrives.

Marty Fahncke: I love that. That's exactly the mindset business owners should have.

The First Steps Toward Building a Saleable Business

Anna Covert: Walk us through some of the practical steps.

Marty Fahncke: First, your financial statements need to be accurate and consistent.

Marty Fahncke: Many small businesses have personal expenses mixed into business accounts, incomplete balance sheets, or financial records that don't match tax returns.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers notice those inconsistencies immediately.

Marty Fahncke: The second major step is creating an operating system—not software, but documented processes for how your business operates.

Marty Fahncke: Think about buying a McDonald's franchise. Every process—from hiring employees to cleaning the restaurant—is documented.

Marty Fahncke: Your business should operate the same way. Everything critical should exist independently of the owner's memory.

The Four Stages of Owner Exit

Marty Fahncke: Business owners also need to exit their companies in stages.

  1. Exit the frontline work.
  2. Exit day-to-day management.
  3. Exit strategic operations by building executive leadership.
  4. Finally, exit ownership through a sale or transition.

Marty Fahncke: Every step you complete makes your company more valuable because buyers are purchasing a business—not simply buying you.

Anna Covert: That's a great distinction.

The Biggest Mistakes Business Owners Make

Anna Covert: What are some of the biggest mistakes you see owners make before trying to sell?

Marty Fahncke: The biggest mistake is waiting too long. Many owners don't think about selling until something forces the decision. By then, they don't have enough time to improve financial performance, strengthen management, or make the business more attractive to buyers.

Marty Fahncke: Another common mistake is believing the business is worth far more than the market says it is. Owners naturally have an emotional attachment to what they've built, but buyers evaluate businesses based on risk, cash flow, systems, and future opportunity—not emotion.

Marty Fahncke: That's why getting an objective valuation long before selling is so important.

Profit vs. Taxes

Anna Covert: One thing that surprised me was your discussion about taxes.

Marty Fahncke: Business owners often spend years trying to minimize taxable income. While that may reduce taxes today, it can significantly reduce the value of the business tomorrow.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers pay for earnings.

Marty Fahncke: If you've spent years making your business appear less profitable, you've also reduced what someone may be willing to pay for it.

Marty Fahncke: Sometimes paying a little more in taxes actually creates a much larger financial outcome when it's time to sell.

Anna Covert: That's something many business owners probably never think about.

Marty Fahncke: Exactly. That's why exit planning needs to involve accountants, attorneys, wealth advisors, and M&A professionals working together.

Building Systems Instead of Dependencies

Anna Covert: We talk a lot on this podcast about systems.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers don't want to buy a job.

Marty Fahncke: They want to buy a business.

Marty Fahncke: If every decision requires the owner's involvement, the business becomes much riskier.

Marty Fahncke: Great companies have documented processes, leadership teams, accountability, and employees empowered to make decisions.

Marty Fahncke: That's what creates transferable value.

Growing Through Acquisition

Anna Covert: You've also spent years helping companies grow through acquisition.

Marty Fahncke: Yes. Many entrepreneurs think growth only comes from selling more.

Marty Fahncke: Sometimes the fastest path to growth is acquiring another company.

Marty Fahncke: If you find a complementary business with loyal customers, talented employees, or strategic assets, acquisitions can dramatically accelerate growth.

Marty Fahncke: Of course, due diligence is critical. You need to understand the financials, the culture, the leadership, and the risks before making any acquisition.

Artificial Intelligence and Business Sales

Anna Covert: Since AI is changing every industry, how do you see it impacting mergers and acquisitions?

Marty Fahncke: AI will absolutely make due diligence faster.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers will be able to analyze financial statements, contracts, operational risks, and historical trends much more efficiently.

Marty Fahncke: But AI doesn't replace judgment.

Marty Fahncke: Human experience still matters when evaluating leadership, culture, customer relationships, and long-term strategic fit.

Anna Covert: I completely agree. AI is becoming an incredible assistant, but people still make the final decisions.

Marty Fahncke: Exactly.

The Four Types of Buyers

Anna Covert: Are all buyers looking for the same thing?

Marty Fahncke: Not at all.

Marty Fahncke: Strategic buyers may pay a premium because your business complements what they already own.

Marty Fahncke: Financial buyers focus on return on investment.

Marty Fahncke: Family offices have different objectives.

Marty Fahncke: Private equity groups evaluate businesses differently as well.

Marty Fahncke: Understanding who the buyer is often changes how you position the business.

Advice for Every Entrepreneur

Anna Covert: If someone listening owns a business today, what's the first thing they should do?

Marty Fahncke: Begin preparing now.

Marty Fahncke: Clean up your financial statements.

Marty Fahncke: Document your systems.

Marty Fahncke: Build a leadership team.

Marty Fahncke: Remove yourself as the bottleneck.

Marty Fahncke: Even if you never sell your company, you'll build a stronger, healthier business.

Marty Fahncke: That's the real objective.

What's Next

Anna Covert: What's next for you?

Marty Fahncke: I'm continuing to help business owners prepare for successful exits through advisory work, speaking, and my book, Boomers Sell the Business.

Marty Fahncke: My mission is helping entrepreneurs maximize the value of the businesses they've worked so hard to build.

How to Connect with Marty

Anna Covert: How can people get in touch with you?

Marty Fahncke: The easiest place is my website at WestboundRoad.com.

Marty Fahncke: You can also connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook, and my book Boomers Sell the Business is available online.

Closing Thoughts

Anna Covert: Marty, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experience.

Marty Fahncke: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Anna Covert: If you haven't already, please subscribe to The Covert Code Podcast. Every week we bring you conversations with entrepreneurs, innovators, and industry leaders to help you grow both personally and professionally.

Anna Covert: Until next time, I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels.

Anna Covert: Aloha.

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Episode 119 – Dr. Annu Navani

By |2026-07-14T20:25:27+00:00June 25th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Future of Healthcare: How AI and Regenerative Medicine Are Changing Medicine Forever

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Dr. Annu Navani to discuss the future of healthcare and how artificial intelligence, regenerative medicine, longevity science, and personalized care are transforming what healing may look like in the years ahead.

Dr. Navani is the founder and Chief Medical Officer of Le Reve Wellness, Chief Medical Officer at Boomerang Healthcare, a Stanford adjunct faculty member, and the author of the upcoming Forbes Books title Health Recoded: A Physician’s Guide to Intelligent Healthcare.

This conversation was fascinating because it explored a question many patients, doctors, and innovators are asking right now:

What if healthcare could become more predictive, more personalized, and more preventative?

Why Healthcare Needs to Change

One of the biggest themes from our conversation was that healthcare is still largely reactive.

Too often, people wait until disease, degeneration, or chronic pain appears before treatment begins. By that point, the system is already working from behind.

Dr. Navani believes the future of medicine should move earlier in the process. Instead of simply treating symptoms after they appear, emerging technologies may help identify risks years before serious health conditions develop.

This shift from reactive care to proactive care could completely change how patients experience medicine.

The Role of AI in Intelligent Healthcare

Artificial intelligence is already beginning to reshape healthcare.

Dr. Navani shared how AI can help analyze biomarker data, imaging, lifestyle factors, family history, and patient behavior to create more personalized healthcare plans.

The goal is not to replace physicians.

The goal is to give doctors better tools.

AI can help identify patterns, predict risks, and support treatment decisions, but clinical expertise remains essential. Human judgment, patient context, and physician experience still matter deeply.

This aligns with many of the AI conversations we explore on The Covert Code: the most powerful use of AI is not replacing people but helping experts make better decisions.

Personalized Medicine Is the Future

One of the most important takeaways from this episode was the need for personalized medicine.

Dr. Navani explained that every patient is different. Genetics, weight, biology, lifestyle, health history, and risk factors all influence how someone responds to treatment.

Instead of a one-size-fits-all model, healthcare is moving toward more customized care.

That means treatments may increasingly be designed around the individual patient rather than the average patient.

For patients, this could mean better outcomes, fewer unnecessary treatments, and a more precise path toward long-term health.

Regenerative Medicine and the Body’s Ability to Heal

Regenerative medicine was another major focus of the conversation.

Dr. Navani discussed platelet-rich plasma, growth factors, exosomes, stem cells, and other therapies that may help support healing and prevent further degeneration.

In her work with spine, orthopedic, and musculoskeletal care, regenerative medicine is especially important because the goal is not only to treat pain but also to improve function and quality of life.

She described her philosophy simply:

Find it, fix it, and move it.

That means identifying the root problem, addressing it, and helping the patient return to movement and function.

Can Humans Live to 120?

One of the most interesting parts of the episode was our conversation about longevity.

Dr. Navani believes that with current knowledge, many people may be able to live longer and healthier lives, potentially reaching 120 years.

But the goal is not simply extending lifespan.

The goal is extending healthspan.

Living longer only matters if people can remain active, functional, independent, and mentally sharp.

That is why lifestyle still matters. Diet, exercise, sleep, and stress management remain foundational for longevity, even as advanced therapies continue to evolve.

Preventative Medicine Starts at Home

While the conversation included advanced technologies, Dr. Navani also emphasized simple daily choices.

What we eat, how we move, how we sleep, and how we manage stress all affect long-term health.

Many people look for complex solutions, but prevention often begins with basic lifestyle habits.

Clean nutrition, regular movement, quality sleep, and stress reduction remain some of the most powerful tools available.

Technology may help us see the risks earlier, but daily behavior still shapes the outcome.

Pain Management Must Be Multidisciplinary

Dr. Navani also shared important insight into pain management.

Chronic pain is not just a symptom. It can become a disease syndrome that affects every part of a person’s life, including family, work, movement, mood, and independence.

That is why pain management must be multidisciplinary.

Medication may have a role in some cases, but it cannot be the only strategy. Interventional procedures, regenerative therapies, physical therapy, meditation, nutrition, cognitive behavioral therapy, and lifestyle support may all play a role in restoring function.

The ultimate goal is not just reducing pain.

The goal is improving quality of life.

The Challenge of Access

One of the most difficult parts of this conversation was access.

Many emerging therapies are expensive and not always covered by insurance. That means some of the most promising treatments may only be available to people who can afford them out of pocket.

Dr. Navani believes this has to change.

If preventative and regenerative medicine can reduce long-term healthcare costs and improve outcomes, then the system must find better ways to make these therapies accessible.

That may require policy changes, insurance changes, clinical trials, regulatory support, and new models of care.

The Future of Healthcare Is Intelligent

The future of healthcare may look very different from the system many patients experience today.

It may be more predictive.

More personalized.

More preventative.

More integrated.

And more focused on helping people live healthier for longer.

Dr. Navani’s work points toward a future where patients are empowered with better information, physicians are supported by smarter tools, and medicine becomes less about reacting to disease and more about preventing it.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear the full conversation with Dr. Annu Navani, visit The Covert Code Podcast.

You can also learn more about Dr. Navani at AnnuNavani.com, explore Le Reve Wellness, or connect with her on LinkedIn and Instagram.

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Transcript: The Future of Healthcare — How AI and Regenerative Medicine Are Changing Medicine Forever

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Dr. Annu Navani

Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is the future of healthcare and how artificial intelligence and regenerative medicine are changing medicine forever.

Anna Covert [00:00:26]: My special guest is Dr. Annu Navani, founder and Chief Medical Officer of Le Reve Wellness, Chief Medical Officer at Boomerang Healthcare, Stanford faculty member, and author of the upcoming Forbes Books title Health Recoded: A Physician's Guide to Intelligent Healthcare.

Anna Covert [00:00:51]: Thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Annu Navani [00:00:55]: Thank you, Anna. It's wonderful to be here.

The Journey Into Medicine

Anna Covert: I always like to start with the CliffsNotes version. How did you get from where you were to where you are today?

Dr. Navani: My journey into medicine began very early. I've always been fascinated by how the human body works and how we can help people heal. Over the years, I became increasingly interested not only in treating disease but in understanding why disease develops in the first place.

Dr. Navani: That curiosity eventually led me toward pain management, regenerative medicine, longevity, and intelligent healthcare systems.

Why Healthcare Must Change

Anna Covert: One of the things we discussed is that our healthcare system tends to be reactive rather than proactive.

Dr. Navani: Exactly. We often wait until patients become very sick before intervening. By then, disease has frequently progressed significantly. We need to move toward prevention, early detection, and personalized care.

Dr. Navani: The future of medicine is identifying risk factors earlier and helping patients make changes before serious illness develops.

The Role of Artificial Intelligence

Anna Covert: AI is impacting every industry. How do you see it affecting healthcare?

Dr. Navani: AI has enormous potential. It can analyze large amounts of patient data, identify patterns, and support physicians in making better decisions.

Dr. Navani: The goal is not to replace physicians. The goal is to give physicians better tools to help patients.

Dr. Navani: Human judgment, compassion, and clinical experience remain essential.

Personalized Medicine

Dr. Navani: Every patient is unique. Their genetics, lifestyle, environment, and medical history all influence health outcomes.

Dr. Navani: Personalized medicine allows us to tailor treatment plans to each individual rather than relying on generalized approaches.

Anna Covert: That seems like one of the biggest shifts happening right now.

Dr. Navani: Absolutely.

Regenerative Medicine

Anna Covert: Can you explain regenerative medicine?

Dr. Navani: Regenerative medicine focuses on helping the body heal itself. This includes therapies such as platelet-rich plasma, growth factors, and stem-cell-based treatments.

Dr. Navani: Our philosophy is simple: find it, fix it, and move it.

Dr. Navani: We want patients to regain function, improve quality of life, and return to the activities they enjoy.

Can Humans Live to 120?

Anna Covert: One of the most fascinating questions we discussed was longevity.

Dr. Navani: The science of longevity continues to advance. Many researchers believe longer, healthier lives are possible.

Dr. Navani: The goal isn't simply to extend lifespan. The goal is to extend healthspan so people remain active, engaged, and healthy for more years.

Lifestyle Still Matters

Dr. Navani: Technology is important, but lifestyle remains foundational.

Dr. Navani: Nutrition, movement, sleep, stress reduction, and social connection continue to play enormous roles in health outcomes.

Dr. Navani: We cannot overlook the basics.

The Future of Healthcare

Anna Covert: If you look ahead ten years, what does healthcare look like?

Dr. Navani: I believe it becomes more personalized, more preventative, and more intelligent.

Dr. Navani: Patients become more informed. Physicians have better tools. Technology supports decision-making. Healthcare becomes proactive rather than reactive.

Dr. Navani: Ultimately, we help people live healthier lives for longer.

Final Thoughts

Anna Covert: What advice would you give someone listening today?

Dr. Navani: Take ownership of your health. Ask questions. Be proactive. Focus on prevention. The decisions you make every day matter.

Anna Covert: Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Navani: Thank you. It was wonderful speaking with you.

Anna Covert: If you have not yet subscribed, please do so. We continue to bring you industry experts and thought leaders helping you succeed both online and offline.

Anna Covert: I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

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Why Leaders Must Be More Visible, Vocal, and Vulnerable to Win Consumer Trust

By |2026-06-26T19:47:43+00:00June 25th, 2026|In The Media|

Consumers are more skeptical about corporate messaging than ever before — a trust quotient that’s been trending downward for some time.

Perhaps that shouldn’t be surprising. Poll the American public and you’ll likely find an erosion of trust in numerous areas of society. For decades, Gallup has tracked a deterioration in trust of nearly all institutions, from government to religion to the media to big business.

The Edelman Trust Barometer brings similar discouraging news for people in positions of authority. Business leaders are not exempt, with 68% of Americans saying they worry that business leaders purposely mislead people by saying things they know are false or gross exaggerations.

Clearly, this trend is worrisome for brands and their messaging, and it is one of the reasons today’s entrepreneurs, CEOs, and other business leaders can’t afford to be invisible, remaining hidden away and sending company spokespeople in their stead. People want to know who you are and what you stand for. A decade ago, it still felt appropriate — even admirable — for leaders to keep a lower profile and let the brand itself take the lead. There was even a belief that drawing attention to yourself was ego-driven or self-serving.

That’s not the world we live in anymore. Today, if you’re not willing to lead from the front—visibly, vocally, and vulnerably—people don’t trust you. The leaders who will win in the next decade are those willing to step forward, share their perspective openly, and create real dialogue with their audience.

And once you walk into the limelight, you might not find it all that bad — especially once you grow in confidence as you gain experience in being front and center, rather than in the background.

Your Message and AI

Trust in businesses and business leaders probably hasn’t been helped by artificial intelligence, but AI may have carved out an opportunity for those trying to establish their authority. If nothing else, AI may have forced the hand of many corporate leaders.

How so?

As more content is AI-generated and automated, authenticity becomes premium. The more artificial the landscape feels, the more valuable a human signal becomes. So bottom line, if you’re not shaping your narrative, the algorithm will shape it for you.

One approach to building authority that I’ve used myself is to focus less on the volume of content and more on platforms that build credibility: writing books, podcasting, and long-form conversations with industry leaders. Those formats create deeper trust and attract the right audience organically.

When you build authority first, the business model becomes much more durable — and the opportunities that follow are often bigger than anything you could have planned.

Your Message and Ethical Use of Data

Of course, there are other ways for you and your brand to either gain or lose the trust of consumers — including the ways in which you use consumer data. That data is incredibly valuable, but it can also be a slippery slope if it’s misused.

Too many companies are chasing shortcuts by buying third-party data or aggressively mining first-party data in ways that ultimately damage trust. The modern consumer is already overwhelmed with emails, texts, calls, DMs, and ads. Assuming people will be pleased to hear from you simply because they might be interested in your product is a fantasy. As one person, frustrated with their interaction with a business, posted on LinkedIn recently: “I signed up to try your tool… not to get 16 emails in three days.”

Rather than inundating consumers with information about your brand, the smarter strategy is attraction rather than intrusion. Know who you are as a brand, understand who your audience is, and place your message where they can discover you naturally instead of forcing your way into their inbox. Building your authority in your industry falls neatly into that approach.

Leaders also need to recognize that the old tactics carry real risk today. Over-emailing, mass texting, aggressive cold outreach, and poorly managed call center strategies can backfire quickly, not only damaging your reputation but even affecting the health of your domain and deliverability if (and when) you are flagged for SPAM.

The most sustainable approach is ethical marketing: know yourself, know your audience, and build systems that invite people into your ecosystem rather than chasing them across the internet.

As the leader, make yourself a visible face of the company, someone whose insights and knowledge are shared with the world, whether you are speaking at an event, being interviewed on a podcast, penning an op-ed for a newspaper, or writing a book.

In that way, you can begin to build trust, and given that our world is flooded with automation and noise, trust is the only signal that still converts.

Article from: International Business Times

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Episode 118 – Charlene Rose

By |2026-06-19T03:00:30+00:00June 18th, 2026|Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Human Advantage: Creating Income AI Can’t Replace

As artificial intelligence continues transforming nearly every industry, many people are asking the same question:

What jobs, businesses, and opportunities will still thrive in an AI-powered world?

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with entrepreneur, choreographer, performer, and Airbnb host Charlene Rose to discuss why authentic human experiences may become even more valuable as technology advances.

Charlene has built multiple businesses around creativity, passion, and personal connection, including her dance company, Living Room to Ballroom, and her themed Airbnb experience, Old Hollywood Lodge.

Following Passion Instead of a Traditional Roadmap

One of the most compelling aspects of Charlene’s entrepreneurial journey is that she never followed a traditional business plan.

She began as a dancer and performer before discovering opportunities that naturally evolved into businesses.

Rather than chasing trends, she focused on what energized her most.

That passion eventually attracted other people who wanted similar experiences, creating the foundation for her dance company.

This philosophy mirrors what many successful entrepreneurs discover over time: business opportunities often emerge when you become deeply committed to something you genuinely love.

How Passion Creates Business Opportunities

According to Charlene, identifying a business opportunity doesn’t always begin with market research.

Sometimes it starts with paying attention.

When she began sharing her passion for dance, people repeatedly expressed interest in learning, performing, and gaining confidence through movement.

Those signals became the foundation for Living Room to Ballroom.

Instead of simply teaching dance, Charlene created an experience that allows women to perform, build friendships, increase confidence, and challenge themselves in new ways.

The lesson is simple:

Pay attention to what people consistently ask you about.

The opportunity may already be sitting in front of you.

The Power of Creating an Experience

The same philosophy guided the creation of Old Hollywood Lodge.

Rather than offering another generic Airbnb rental, Charlene designed an immersive experience inspired by classic Hollywood glamour.

Guests don’t simply rent a room.

They step into a themed environment that feels unique and memorable.

This is an important lesson for business owners.

In crowded markets, products often compete on price.

Experiences compete on emotion.

The more memorable your experience becomes, the more likely customers are to share it and return.

Why AI May Increase Demand for Human Experiences

One of the most fascinating parts of our conversation focused on artificial intelligence.

While many professionals worry about AI replacing jobs, Charlene sees a different future.

She believes people will increasingly seek authentic, real-world experiences as digital content becomes more artificial.

Live performances.

Dance classes.

Community events.

Travel experiences.

Personal interaction.

These are all things AI struggles to replicate.

As technology becomes more powerful, genuine human connection may become even more valuable.

This aligns with many conversations we’ve had on The Covert Code Podcast about the future of work and the importance of developing skills that emphasize communication, creativity, empathy, and community.

Commitment Still Matters

Charlene also shared an insightful observation about generational shifts.

Many younger audiences are interested in experiences but often struggle with long-term commitment.

Dance, performance, and mastery require repetition, practice, and dedication.

While social media can create the illusion of instant success, genuine expertise still requires effort.

The entrepreneurs who succeed will be the ones who remain committed long after the initial excitement fades.

Trusting Your Intuition

Throughout the conversation, one theme appeared repeatedly: intuition.

Charlene believes many of her opportunities emerged because she followed what genuinely excited her rather than what seemed practical on paper.

That doesn’t mean ignoring strategy.

It means allowing passion and intuition to help guide decision-making.

Often the next opportunity reveals itself only after taking action on the current one.

Final Thoughts

The future may belong to those who can combine technology with uniquely human experiences.

AI will continue transforming industries, improving efficiency, and changing how work gets done.

But creativity, connection, performance, storytelling, hospitality, and community remain deeply human pursuits.

Charlene’s journey demonstrates that some of the most resilient businesses are built around things technology cannot easily replace.

Passion.

Experience.

Authenticity.

Connection.

To hear the full conversation with Charlene Rose, visit The Covert Code Podcast.

CONNECT WITH CHARLENE ROSE

Charlene Rose

Living Room to Ballroom

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Transcript: Why Human Experiences Will Thrive in an AI World

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Charlene Rose

Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu. This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is why human experiences will thrive in an AI world.

Anna Covert [00:00:21]: My very special guest is Charlene Rose, an entrepreneur, actor, hand model, and choreographer who has built a life and businesses rooted in passion and creativity.

Anna Covert [00:00:32]: She is the founder of Living Room to Ballroom, a professional dance company that helps people step into new challenges and create new opportunities for development. She is also the visionary behind Old Hollywood Lodge, a unique Airbnb location with a very interesting story that we're going to dive into.

Anna Covert [00:00:49]: Thanks so much for being here today.

Charlene Rose [00:00:55]: Thank you for having me. You're beautiful. What did you call it?

Anna Covert [00:00:58]: Battleship. This is my battleship.

Charlene Rose [00:01:00]: I love it. Thank you for having me.

Anna Covert [00:01:03]: To get us started, I like to ask all of our guests for the CliffsNotes version. You're very unique and different than some other guests, which is exciting. How did you get from where you were to where you are now as this interesting entrepreneur?

Charlene Rose [00:01:16]: I started as a dancer. I went to college for dance and musical theater. How I became an entrepreneur and businessperson kind of just happened, not in a traditional way. I didn't follow a specific roadmap. It was more about following my intuition and my passion, what ignites me.

Charlene Rose [00:01:44]: Step by step along the way, the roadmap presented itself. I came to LA, was competing, and then I started my dance company because it was something I was passionate about. People latched onto it and said, “I want to do that too.” I saw a need and developed a business out of it.

Charlene Rose [00:02:14]: The Airbnb was a separate thing that came randomly because I wanted to buy a property, but it wasn't right for me to live in at the time. So I decided to make it an investment and use my creativity to make it something special and different.

Anna Covert [00:02:43]: Tell us more about your dance company. It's not traditional ballroom dance. What exactly is it, and what kind of audience are you attracting?

Charlene Rose [00:02:51]: It has gone through different phases, but it was mainly rooted in Latin dance. I'm a salsa dancer. First, I did partnering, but nowadays I'm just teaching women.

Charlene Rose [00:03:10]: During the pandemic, it was really difficult to do partner dancing because people had to stay six feet apart. I had a bachata partnering series that started right as everything shut down, and we continued it, but instead of live performances, we created videos.

Charlene Rose [00:03:45]: Now I teach women choreography, set up shows for them, pick costumes, and because of the pandemic, we also do professional videos. Within one series, they get to perform live and do a video shoot.

Charlene Rose [00:04:10]: At the same time, they're building camaraderie. Some of my team members become best friends for years. They're gaining confidence and learning skills. The two styles I do right now are salsa and burlesque.

Anna Covert [00:04:41]: So it's not just for people to learn to dance. It's more like they get a professional experience.

Charlene Rose [00:04:48]: It's not professional in the sense that my students are trying to become professionals. Most of my students are ages 40 to 70. These are women with careers who maybe danced when they were younger, maybe never danced, or always wanted to dance.

Charlene Rose [00:05:15]: I'm giving them the experience of having a professional opportunity to dance and be on stage. Some of my students have even gone on to get paid jobs from the experience.

Anna Covert [00:05:36]: How are you marketing your business?

Charlene Rose [00:05:38]: I market on social media, and a lot of my business is word of mouth. This is my 17th year, and many of my students have been with me for a very long time. Some have been with me at least ten years. They keep spreading the word, and from social media I get people coming in. It's a special thing that I offer.

Anna Covert [00:06:19]: For people listening who are trying to figure out how to use their passion to create business opportunities, what recommendations do you have on identifying a business opportunity linked to your passion?

Charlene Rose [00:06:32]: From my experience, it presented itself. I had a passion, and because I was doing my passion, people latched onto it. If you're putting yourself out there around what you're passionate about, people will see it and you'll find your people.

Charlene Rose [00:07:05]: Look at what people are saying. For me, people said, “I want to look like that. I want to dance like that. I want to feel like that.” That's what worked for me with dance instruction.

Charlene Rose [00:07:30]: With my Airbnb, I looked to see what was out there and what was standing out. That helped me choose something different with an aesthetic people wanted.

Anna Covert [00:08:01]: What makes it different?

Charlene Rose [00:08:03]: Mine has an Old Hollywood theme. I use vintage decor, and throughout the house there are images of old Hollywood stars. You feel like you're going back in time.

Charlene Rose [00:08:24]: People want an experience. There are so many Airbnbs that look the same. The ones doing well and standing out had something different. It made it more of an experience. It's exciting to go to this place. You're not just going to an Airbnb.

Anna Covert [00:09:42]: How have the fires in Hollywood affected your business?

Charlene Rose [00:09:44]: It didn't really affect my business. My clients weren't in that area. I'm in West LA, and the places most affected were the Palisades and Altadena. LA is very big and spread out.

Charlene Rose [00:10:40]: It was crazy during that time. I was at my friend's place trying to get things out of her apartment because the fire kept moving. It was very smoky, to the point where I almost left town. But as far as actual damage, it was in specific areas.

Anna Covert [00:11:28]: Your Airbnb wasn't impacted?

Charlene Rose [00:11:34]: No. If anything, I got people from the fires who wanted to get away.

Anna Covert [00:11:38]: How do you think AI is going to impact the industries you're in?

Charlene Rose [00:11:44]: I feel lucky because I don't think it will really impact me negatively. In fact, I feel like my businesses will thrive because of AI. People are going to want more in-person experiences. They're going to get tired of seeing AI images and AI videos and not knowing what's real.

Charlene Rose [00:12:15]: Dance fills that need for in-person connection. I'm here right with you. Even the touch aspect of dancing creates connection.

Anna Covert [00:12:37]: Not in your dance right now?

Charlene Rose [00:12:38]: Not in my specific dance right now, but I'm still involved in that world and could get back into partnering. Even with live performances, which I also provide, and immersive events with performances and live music, every part of it is in person.

Anna Covert [00:13:18]: People are starved for authenticity and realism, and it's only getting more important.

Charlene Rose [00:14:28]: People are going to get tired of the boxed AI sound. They're going to want live experiences. In that aspect, I feel like I'm in a good place as far as AI goes. The Airbnb is also a place you go to.

Anna Covert [00:14:52]: Are algorithms being affected? Online search is being impacted directly by AI. Are you advertising through Airbnb?

Charlene Rose [00:15:17]: Not that I know of. I'm consistently booked, so whatever is happening with the algorithm or AI is still working for me.

Charlene Rose [00:15:31]: I'm on Airbnb, Booking.com, and Vrbo. I'm probably 80 to 90 percent booked. I want to start using ads because I have something unique and feel like I could price it at a higher level.

Anna Covert [00:16:21]: I probably wouldn't do Facebook ads because of all the fraud.

Charlene Rose [00:16:24]: I didn't know that.

Anna Covert [00:16:37]: You're unique because people are actively going somewhere. They have dates, they want to book something. They're very low in the purchase funnel. Facebook is not usually where they're looking for a place to stay.

Anna Covert [00:17:10]: You could get boosting through the platforms you're already on, get featured, increase the price, and test that. That is typically the better way to go.

Charlene Rose [00:17:22]: I think that's what I'll do.

Anna Covert [00:17:22]: There are AI changes coming to these algorithms. Airlines already recognize behavior and charge differently based on user patterns, location, and time of day. The same types of things can apply in travel and lodging.

Anna Covert [00:18:43]: You're in a really good spot. Anything with a keyboard is in the first wave of AI impact. Eventually, robots may do more physical tasks, but dance instruction is probably safe for a while.

Charlene Rose [00:19:18]: I think that's pretty safe.

Anna Covert [00:19:21]: People should think about following their passion while protecting themselves. Your current customers for your dance school have been around a long time, but if you target younger people, there may be interesting opportunities.

Charlene Rose [00:20:03]: With the younger generation, I would have to change things around. From what I've seen, they don't want to commit to anything, and with dance you have to commit.

Charlene Rose [00:20:31]: People may see an amazing dancer and think they want to do that, but they don't realize the hours of repetition, training, blood, sweat, and tears that go into it.

Anna Covert [00:20:59]: Or they take a picture of themselves and have AI do it for them.

Charlene Rose [00:21:01]: Exactly. There are AI videos where you can put your face on somebody else's body doing tricks. People are going to get tired of it. For the younger generation, I might do something more free-flowing, like dancing without the same level of commitment.

Anna Covert [00:21:37]: My dad was known as the cha-cha king. My parents did dance lessons together, and I loved dancing with my dad because he was a legit lead.

Anna Covert [00:22:10]: I think that's why line dancing has become popular again. You can dance by yourself, but there's coordination, difficulty, and everyone is together.

Charlene Rose [00:22:34]: That's a great thing because it doesn't require a lot of skill, but it's still fun. There's a market. You just have to figure it out and find the need.

Charlene Rose [00:23:48]: I have a very specific niche. I know exactly the type of people who are going to be into what I provide, and I know they'll be loyal once they join. I just have to get them into the class.

Anna Covert [00:24:18]: When we think about what is less affected by AI, it's things with your hands and feet, human things, crafts, performance, touch, love, and service.

Anna Covert [00:25:52]: People are going to be drawn toward real human engagement. That's dancing, collaborating, singing, performing, creativity, and what it means to be human.

Charlene Rose [00:26:14]: My brother does coding and is a little nervous, but from his experience AI still messes up, and he has to be hands-on with it.

Anna Covert [00:26:44]: That's called AI hallucination, where it gets off on a tangent. The more input you give it, the better it gets. What's missing right now is the human interface and communication. People need to know how to tell AI what they want.

Charlene Rose [00:27:16]: I use AI a lot with writing for my website and captions. It's crazy how smart it is. It hasn't been around in the general public for that long, and it's advancing quickly. It's kind of scary.

Charlene Rose [00:27:52]: If someone's business is potentially affected by AI, they should adjust so there is some kind of hands-on, person-to-person element.

Anna Covert [00:28:07]: It goes back to passion. If you're listening and worried about AI, think about what makes you happy. Maybe you love helping people, cooking, caregiving, crafts, or something else. You can make a business out of that.

Charlene Rose [00:29:21]: I believe in that 100 percent. Mindset is a big part of it. Making your own business is not a sure thing, but when you're aligned and go for it, things start to fall into place in wild ways.

Charlene Rose [00:30:01]: Some people are afraid, so they dip their foot in, but it doesn't work that way. You have to be 100 percent in it. With my Airbnb, I didn't know what I was doing. It was my first house purchase, but I did research and wasn't going into it blindly.

Charlene Rose [00:31:10]: I was renovating the house and doing heavy labor. At the same time, I booked a Beachbody program as a workout person in the video, which gave me extra money and helped me get strong. It came at the perfect time. That's an example of synchronicity.

Anna Covert [00:32:15]: Of all times, this is one of the easiest times to start your own business. Before, you needed an agency to create logos, websites, marketing plans, business plans, and more. Now you can use tools to create a lot of those things yourself and start testing ideas.

Charlene Rose [00:33:04]: Absolutely.

Anna Covert [00:33:04]: What's next for you? Are you going to expand your business or get another house?

Charlene Rose [00:33:15]: In the next five years, I think I would like to get another Airbnb. I enjoy hosting. I love getting reviews saying guests had a fabulous stay, loved the decor, and found it serene.

Charlene Rose [00:33:45]: Sometimes when you're on a path, other things come up. I didn't know I was an interior designer, but I had to be to make my place stand out. Now friends have asked me to do interior design for their places, so that could be something I pursue.

Charlene Rose [00:34:20]: Right now I have my Airbnb, my dance company, and my dad's construction business. I stay open to what feels like it ignites me.

Anna Covert [00:34:35]: Bashar has a formula that says if your higher self is guiding you, you act on your passion first. When that passion shifts, you follow the next passion, and synchronicities line up.

Charlene Rose [00:35:15]: Just follow what ignites you. Follow what feeds your soul and makes you excited. Whatever you're doing will take effort, but it becomes easier if you listen to that guidance.

Anna Covert [00:36:05]: How can people get ahold of you?

Charlene Rose [00:36:08]: I'm on Instagram and Facebook as Charlene Rose. My Airbnb is Old Hollywood Lodge, also on Instagram and Facebook. My dance instruction company is Living Room to Ballroom.

Anna Covert [00:36:23]: Great. We'll keep all those links in the feed and channel. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please tune in next week as I interview another industry expert on topics to help you succeed on and offline. If you have not yet subscribed, please subscribe to the channel. We're approaching 170,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha. I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

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Episode 117 – Dave Gulas

By |2026-06-09T20:49:10+00:00June 11th, 2026|Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Dave Gulas, entrepreneur, podcast host, and co-founder of EZDC 3PL, to discuss one of the biggest shifts happening in business today: the rise of founder-led selling.

For years, companies could rely on logos, corporate messaging, and brand recognition to attract customers. Today, that strategy is becoming less effective. Customers want to know who they’re buying from. They want transparency, authenticity, and a human connection.

Dave believes that founders can no longer hide behind their company name, and after our conversation, it’s difficult to disagree.

People Buy From People

One of the most important themes from our conversation was that people do business with people.

Customers want to understand the person behind the business. They want to know your values, your story, and why you started the company in the first place. Whether you’re selling software, professional services, e-commerce products, or logistics solutions, trust is still the foundation of every buying decision.

As someone who has spent more than two decades helping companies grow through digital marketing at Covert Communication, I’ve watched this trend accelerate significantly over the last few years. The companies seeing the greatest engagement are often the ones where the founder is visible and actively communicating with their audience.

People connect with people. They rarely connect with logos.

Why Personal Branding Matters More Than Ever

Dave shared how he entered the logistics industry and quickly realized that simply having a website and a service offering wasn’t enough. To compete with larger organizations, he needed to become visible.

That meant creating content. Attending trade shows. Launching a podcast. Sharing his experiences publicly. Most importantly, it meant becoming comfortable sharing his experiences publicly.

That journey eventually led to the creation of the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast, where Dave interviews entrepreneurs and explores the realities of building businesses beyond the highlight reels often portrayed on social media.

The result wasn’t overnight success. It was something more valuable: credibility.

This aligns closely with many of the authority-building concepts I’ve written about on AnnaCovert.com, where I’ve long advocated for founders to become active participants in their marketing rather than outsourcing their entire public presence.

The Fear of Visibility

One of the most significant barriers preventing founders from building their personal brand is fear.

Fear of criticism.

Fear of judgment.

Fear of saying the wrong thing.

Fear of not being perfect is another common concern.

Dave offered an interesting perspective on this issue. After creating content consistently, he realized something important: most people aren’t paying nearly as much attention as we think they are.

In fact, the bigger challenge isn’t criticism.

The bigger challenge is that people notice you at all.

In today’s crowded digital landscape, visibility requires consistency. Founders who wait until they feel comfortable often wait forever.

The better strategy is simple: start.

AI Is Making Authenticity More Valuable

One of the most fascinating parts of our conversation centered around artificial intelligence.

AI is changing everything from content creation to customer service, logistics, sales, and marketing. As businesses increasingly leverage AI-generated content, something remarkable is happening.

Authenticity is becoming more valuable.

People can sense lived experience.

They can tell when someone is speaking from real-world knowledge or simply repeating generic information.

That doesn’t mean founders should avoid AI. Quite the opposite.

AI can help organize ideas, generate outlines, summarize information, and improve efficiency. We discuss AI regularly on The Covert Code because it has become one of the most transformative business tools of our generation.

But AI works best when paired with genuine human insight.

Your story is still yours.

Your perspective still matters.

Your experiences still create differentiation.

Building Authority Starts With Small Steps

Many entrepreneurs assume they need to become influencers to build authority.

That’s simply not true.

Dave and I discussed several practical ways founders can begin establishing their personal brand immediately.

  • Secure your personal domain name.
  • Invest in professional headshots.
  • Update your LinkedIn profile.
  • Create consistency across social platforms.
  • Share lessons from your experience.
  • Participate in podcasts and interviews.
  • Develop a perspective.

Authority is rarely built through a single viral post.

It is built through repetition, consistency, and visibility over time.

Many of the strategies discussed in my book, The Covert Code: Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing, follow this same principle. Sustainable growth comes from consistently showing up and creating trust.

The Future Belongs to Visible Leaders

The era of faceless brands is fading.

As consumers become increasingly skeptical of corporate messaging and AI-generated content floods the internet, founders have an opportunity to differentiate themselves through authenticity.

The businesses that thrive over the next decade will likely be led by individuals who are willing to share their expertise, communicate their values, and build relationships directly with their audience.

Founder-led selling isn’t simply a marketing tactic.

It’s becoming a competitive advantage.

And for many entrepreneurs, it may become the most valuable asset they own.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear my complete conversation with Dave Gulas about founder-led selling, personal branding, podcasting, AI, and building authority in today’s marketplace, listen to the full episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

You can also learn more about Dave and his work at DaveGulas.com and connect with him on LinkedIn.

Watch the full episode of The Covert Code Podcast featuring Lou Chatta and learn more about the future of AI-powered travel.

And if you’re interested in conversations around AI, authority, innovation, leadership, and the future of digital transformation, explore more episodes and articles at:

📖 GET THE BOOK: The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing
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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

ANNA’S WEBSITES:
The Covert Code: https://thecovertcode.com/
Anna Covert: https://annacovert.com/
Covert Communication: https://covertcommunication.com/
Reactium: https://reactium.io/

⚠️ Affiliate Disclosure: Some links included may be affiliate links, which means we may earn a commission if you choose to make a purchase through them at no additional cost to you.

Transcript: Founder-Led Selling and Why Faceless Brands Are Losing

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Dave Gulas

Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu. This week on The Covert Code, the topic is founder-led selling and why faceless brands are losing.

Anna Covert [00:00:18]: My very special guest is Dave Gulas. He's an entrepreneur, podcast host, and co-founder of EZDC 3PL. With over 20 years of experience in sales and marketing leadership, Dave has firsthand experience and really believes that it's no longer possible for someone to hide behind their company name.

Anna Covert [00:00:38]: Personal brand is of utmost importance, and today we're diving into how you can lead from the front with founder-led selling. Thanks so much for being here today, Dave.

Dave Gulas [00:00:51]: Hey Anna, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Anna Covert [00:00:55]: To get us started, can you give us the CliffsNotes version of the Dave story? How did you get from where you were to where you are, and tell us more about EZDC 3PL?

Dave Gulas [00:01:04]: Absolutely. I'm a lifelong sales guy. I've been in sales my entire adult life. Most of that time was in the medical and pharmaceutical space. In 2022, a good friend of mine and I co-founded EZDC 3PL because we saw a gap in the market where emerging ecommerce brands were being left out by the big-box players in the 3PL space.

Dave Gulas [00:01:38]: We had the means available to start a 3PL, so we jumped in and did it with a lot of personal experience and high-touch customer service from our days in pharma. We thought it would be a great fit for logistics.

Dave Gulas [00:01:55]: We've been growing that business for almost four years. We have two locations in Kentucky and are rapidly growing. I also host the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast. I've been doing that almost three years, and it's really about the entrepreneurial journey, not the Instagram highlight reel, but the raw reality of what it's like to be an entrepreneur.

Anna Covert [00:02:09]: It is a wild road. Can you tell us what 3PL is?

Dave Gulas [00:02:15]: It stands for third-party logistics. If you have an ecommerce brand and you're growing and scaling, most start with humble beginnings out of their home or maybe a small office. As they grow, they reach a graduation point where they need to outsource logistics.

Dave Gulas [00:02:34]: Instead of renting a warehouse, managing staff, paying for expensive software, and negotiating carrier contracts, they outsource to a company that specializes in logistics. That lets them leverage economies of scale and focus on their zone of genius so they can continue to grow.

Anna Covert [00:02:56]: This is so common. We actually have a client coming over in a couple hours who started a pancake company, and we were just talking about this. At what point does he stop fulfilling orders himself? This is a real need for entrepreneurs.

Dave Gulas [00:03:11]: Absolutely. You'll know when fulfillment becomes such a headache and so overwhelming that it's inhibiting growth and the other business development activities a founder should be doing. If they're running back and forth shipping packages or spending too much time in the warehouse, that's typically when it's time to outsource.

Anna Covert [00:03:38]: Absolutely. We have another client who could have grown much faster had they had a company like yours. Whenever she goes on vacation or gets distracted with in-store samplings, orders stack up and people cancel. It's so much easier to keep a customer than get a new customer, so it's critical that orders are sent out fast and without issues.

Dave Gulas [00:04:22]: One hundred percent. We're in the age of Amazon where everyone wants everything right now. You want the order confirmed fast, flowing from Shopify to the fulfillment center, and shipped right away. The customer expects that automatically. Anything less can create a serious problem in terms of keeping that customer.

Anna Covert [00:04:49]: Let's jump deeper into the idea of personal brand and founder-led sales. Tell me about your vision behind that.

Dave Gulas [00:05:05]: It started for me when I got into logistics. Previously, in pharmaceuticals, it was traditional B2B sales. In logistics, it's wide open and you never know where customers will come from. It's hard to call people and ask if they're looking to move warehouses. You need to be visible and be found when people have that need.

Dave Gulas [00:05:42]: It hit me when I went to my first industry trade show and saw how big the other companies were, what they were doing, and how they were marketing. I wasn't used to content creation, so I had to learn quickly. I was uncomfortable and scared at first, but I knew I had to do it.

Dave Gulas [00:06:17]: As I kept doing it, I became more comfortable. Eventually, I started a podcast and interviewed other entrepreneurs. I expanded my content, did guest interviews, and through that, people got to know me. It attracted attention and has been instrumental for business growth.

Dave Gulas [00:06:45]: I think it's essential for a founder growing their brand to be visible because people do business with people. They want to know who you are. In the age of social media and instant access, you can no longer hide behind the company name.

Anna Covert [00:07:11]: Absolutely. Even five or six years ago, it might have seemed endearing for someone to say they wanted the team to shine and didn't want to be the face. But that is not the way you're going to help the team. You must lead internally and externally. If you're not comfortable now, you need to become comfortable.

Dave Gulas [00:08:18]: One thing you mentioned is people being scared and the spotlight effect. We think everyone is looking at us and wondering what they'll think. What I realized when I started creating content is how hard it is to get attention. Everyone is wrapped up in themselves, their own problems, and their own businesses.

Anna Covert [00:09:05]: It may not be perfect, but that's authentic. With AI and everything happening, people are craving authentic realness.

Dave Gulas [00:09:14]: Yes. I have this podcast, and I've been press credentialed at numerous trade shows. I walk the floor doing man-on-the-street interviews. At one show, ABC Kids Expo in Vegas, it was all these kids and baby brands. Most of the people I interviewed were mompreneurs who saw a problem and started a business.

Dave Gulas [00:09:55]: It was almost universal. They had this idea in their head and turned it into a tangible product or business. They kept going because they believed in their vision. Entrepreneurs face all kinds of challenges, but the ones that succeed are the ones who don't give up.

Anna Covert [00:10:54]: There is so much noise out there. In digital marketing, the stats are incredible around how many ads we're exposed to every day. You have to stand out, and you have to say it more than once. People do not remember anything, and you have to keep reminding them why to pick you.

Dave Gulas [00:11:31]: One hundred percent. People ask, “What do I say?” Be you. Say what's true to you. Say what your values are and what your unique proposition is as a business. When you communicate that consistently, the right people will be attracted to it.

Anna Covert [00:12:02]: What do you think are some misconceptions or reluctances about founders promoting themselves?

Dave Gulas [00:12:09]: I'm shocked when I go to a founder at a show and ask if they want to do an interview, a free chance to promote their business, and they say no. I think, “It's your business. How do you not want to tell people about it?”

Dave Gulas [00:12:40]: People worry they'll look stupid, or wonder what people will think. I also see people say they're not good at sales and will outsource that. But as the founder, it's your baby. Who will communicate your vision better than you? No one. It's part of the job.

Anna Covert [00:13:13]: Why are you in this? What do you do better than others? What core value proposition are you bringing? You wouldn't have gotten into this business if you didn't believe you could do something others aren't fulfilling.

Dave Gulas [00:13:25]: One hundred percent.

Anna Covert [00:13:26]: With tools like AI, if you are uncomfortable, you can ask ChatGPT to ask you questions and train you in your own sales dialogue. You can say, “I'm going to be on this podcast, ask me sample questions,” and it will help you prepare.

Dave Gulas [00:14:09]: As much as I've done with AI, I've never done that. I'm going to try that for the next podcast I'm on.

Anna Covert [00:14:17]: Your podcast is becoming a top-ranked show. What do you think people are most drawn to?

Dave Gulas [00:14:29]: I started it because I was having valuable conversations with entrepreneurs, and that was the most important way I learned as a young founder. I thought if I put it in a podcast, the audience benefits, the guest gets exposure, and it helps me. It's a true win-win.

Dave Gulas [00:15:05]: The feedback I get is that people love hearing the real story. When you dive into a founder's journey, what really happened and how they overcame things, it resonates. Some of the stories are incredible. The people kept going, stayed true to their vision, and made it to the other side.

Anna Covert [00:15:58]: With AI being so disruptive, that kind of content feels even more important because AI is impacting everything. How do you think AI will impact logistics?

Dave Gulas [00:16:30]: We use it to optimize different things. Our software provider uses it to optimize routes through the warehouse with AI picking. We're also using it with internal development to build systems and tools that help us serve customers better.

Dave Gulas [00:17:03]: When we onboard a new customer, I can dump all my conversations and notes into AI, and it creates an onboarding document in seconds for my teams. There are all kinds of ways to use it.

Dave Gulas [00:17:25]: I'm a big believer in the human in the loop. Regardless of how good AI is, the supercomputer in your skull is still unmatched if you use it properly. We need intelligent humans using these tools to create the best possible outcomes.

Anna Covert [00:17:53]: I agree. AI is not right the first or second time, or even the third. For me, it's an opportunity to free up time to have more conversations, be more creative, and spend more time with clients while AI does some of the heavy lifting.

Dave Gulas [00:18:48]: One hundred percent.

Anna Covert [00:18:51]: What recommendations do you have for a founder listening right now who wants to break out of their comfort zone and establish a personal brand?

Dave Gulas [00:19:06]: Not to sound cliche, but just do it. Start wherever you are. I'm a big believer in messy, imperfect action. Get out of inertia, create momentum, stay in motion, and learn as you go.

Dave Gulas [00:19:30]: If it feels daunting or you don't know where to start, hire help. That's what I did. I knew I needed to do it, but I didn't know where to start. I hired a team to help me find my voice and push me.

Dave Gulas [00:20:05]: Anything that happens in your life can potentially become content. You have to be comfortable doing it, and the only way to get comfortable is to do it.

Anna Covert [00:21:02]: I agree. One of the first things people should do is see if they can buy their domain name. Claim it even if you're not using it today. Authorship is a great way to increase personal branding. Podcasting, being on podcasts, creating a podcast, and even a really great headshot matter.

Anna Covert [00:21:42]: Update your social profiles: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, whatever you're using. Make sure you have a vanity name if available. Everything should be consistent. That's a great place to begin cross-domain authority building.

Dave Gulas [00:22:11]: One hundred percent. Put a picture of you now. Make sure your profiles are consistent. On LinkedIn, make sure the company you list, especially if it's your own, is a verified company page with a logo. Check your profile, title, and positioning.

Anna Covert [00:23:37]: You can be successful.

Dave Gulas [00:23:38]: Love that.

Anna Covert [00:23:40]: What's next for Dave in 2026?

Dave Gulas [00:23:47]: We're in the middle of a busy sales season in the 3PL world, continually onboarding new clients. We've expanded our space, and I have more trade shows booked. I love to travel and meet more people. The podcast continues to grow, and I have more guest spots booked.

Anna Covert [00:24:41]: Thanks so much for being here. How can people get ahold of you and find your podcast?

Dave Gulas [00:24:45]: My podcast is Beyond Fulfillment, and it's on YouTube and everywhere podcasts are heard. You can find me at DaveGulas.com. For ecommerce 3PL services, go to EZDC3PL.com. LinkedIn is my main social platform, so reach out there.

Anna Covert [00:25:12]: Awesome, and we'll have all those links in the channel. Thanks so much for joining us today. If you have not yet subscribed, please do so. We're approaching 200,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha.

Anna Covert [00:25:30]: Please subscribe and continue to share this content with your friends and family so I can get more great guests like Dave to share their wisdom. I cannot wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha!

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Episode 116 – Rob Aquino

By |2026-06-09T21:24:41+00:00June 4th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Why Small Businesses Hit Growth Ceilings and How to Break Through Them

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Rob Aquino, CEO of JBS Corp and author of The Small Business Money Game: Hidden Strategies That Turn Survival into Scale, to discuss one of the greatest challenges entrepreneurs face: growth ceilings.

Rob’s perspective is unique because he has spent years working with thousands of entrepreneurs while analyzing their financial statements, tax returns, cash flow challenges, and scaling decisions. Through that experience, he developed what he calls the Breakpoint Framework, a roadmap that explains why businesses plateau and what founders must do to continue growing.

The Entrepreneurial Paradox

One of the most insightful moments of the conversation centered around what Rob calls the entrepreneurial paradox.

To reach the next level, you need more resources. But to get those resources, you often need to already be operating at the next level.

This chicken-and-egg problem is something every entrepreneur eventually encounters. Whether it’s hiring a new employee, investing in technology, expanding marketing efforts, or opening a new location, growth almost always requires taking calculated risks before the outcome is guaranteed.

As discussed throughout many leadership conversations on The Covert Code, successful founders learn how to become resourceful before they become resource-rich.

Why Businesses Stop Growing

According to Rob, many entrepreneurs reach a point where their skills become the bottleneck.

Initially, the founder is the salesperson. Then they become the operator. Then the recruiter. Then the leader.

Each stage requires an entirely different set of skills.

The challenge is that most entrepreneurs become comfortable performing the role that initially made them successful. They struggle to let go of those responsibilities and evolve into the next version of themselves.

This aligns closely with concepts I’ve discussed on AnnaCovert.com regarding leadership evolution and the importance of continuous adaptation in business.

The Seven Business Breakpoints

Rob’s Breakpoint Framework identifies seven distinct growth stages that businesses typically encounter on the path toward $25 million in revenue.

Each breakpoint requires the entrepreneur to adopt a new identity and develop new competencies.

For example:

  • The Founder
  • The Builder
  • The Recruiter
  • The Operator
  • The Executive
  • The CEO
  • The Shareholder

Many businesses never move beyond the hiring stage because founders struggle to recruit, delegate, and trust others with critical responsibilities.

That realization often becomes the difference between building a lifestyle business and building a scalable company.

What Monopoly Can Teach Entrepreneurs

One of the most entertaining parts of the episode involved Rob’s fascination with Monopoly.

Rob shared how his upcoming book uses Monopoly as a framework for understanding financial strategy, capital allocation, negotiation, and wealth creation.

What many people don’t realize is that Monopoly was originally designed as a cautionary lesson about concentrated wealth. Over time, however, players discovered that mastering the game’s mechanics could reveal powerful insights about investing, ownership, and long-term strategy.

The discussion became a fascinating exploration of how games can shape our understanding of money and risk.

The Psychology of Money

Another major theme was how our childhood experiences shape our relationship with money.

Rob explained that many financial behaviors develop between the ages of five and twelve. Whether someone grows up with a scarcity mindset or an abundance mindset often influences how they approach risk, investing, entrepreneurship, and growth later in life.

This phenomenon is one reason why two business owners with identical opportunities can produce dramatically different results.

Their financial beliefs may be entirely different.

AI and the Future of Small Business

Naturally, the conversation turned to artificial intelligence.

Rob believes AI will lower barriers to entry and allow smaller companies to compete more effectively with larger organizations. At the same time, he sees a growing demand for authentic human relationships.

While AI can automate tasks and increase efficiency, entrepreneurs who understand trust, communication, and relationship-building may become even more valuable.

That perspective mirrors many of the AI discussions featured on The Covert Code Podcast, where innovation and human connection are increasingly intersecting.

Lessons from COVID

One of the defining moments in Rob’s career came during COVID.

As businesses struggled to survive, many owners discovered they lacked the financial reporting and bookkeeping systems needed to qualify for government relief programs.

That experience ultimately led Rob to pivot his career and help build solutions that supported entrepreneurs during one of the most challenging periods in recent history.

The lesson was simple but powerful:

Financial visibility matters.

Business owners who understand their numbers make better decisions.

The Small Business Money Game

At its core, Rob’s upcoming book is about helping entrepreneurs understand the language of money.

Too many founders focus exclusively on sales while ignoring financial literacy. But understanding cash flow, banking relationships, capital allocation, profitability, and strategic planning is often what separates businesses that survive from those that scale.

The goal isn’t simply to make more money.

The goal is to understand how money works so you can make better decisions with it.

To hear Rob Aquino’s complete insights on entrepreneurship, financial strategy, growth ceilings, AI, and the Breakpoint Framework, watch the full episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

And if you’re interested in conversations around AI, authority, innovation, leadership, and the future of digital transformation, explore more episodes and articles at:

📖 GET THE BOOK: The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing
Amazon: https://rb.gy/wrht8
Barnes & Noble: https://rb.gy/vwev0a
Target: https://rb.gy/jhpxri

🎧 LISTEN ON ALL PLATFORMS:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0UcnL4g4J2DckqMpZg4DdB?si=NKAFJcRMSdOJlP5iebBxoA&nd=1&dlsi=50d6d5c5753a499b
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-covert-code/id1733326615
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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

ANNA’S WEBSITES:
The Covert Code: https://thecovertcode.com/
Anna Covert: https://annacovert.com/
Covert Communication: https://covertcommunication.com/
Reactium: https://reactium.io/

⚠️ Affiliate Disclosure: Some links included may be affiliate links, which means we may earn a commission if you choose to make a purchase through them at no additional cost to you.

Transcript: Why Small Businesses Hit Growth Ceilings and How to Break Through Them

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Rob Aquino

Anna Covert [00:00:03]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I’m coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:01:02]: This week on The Covert Code, the topic is why small businesses hit growth ceilings and how to break through them. My very special guest is Robinson “Rob” Aquino, CEO of JBS Corp and Entrepreneur Books, author of The Small Business Money Game: Hidden Strategies That Turn Survival into Scale, which is hitting shelves on June 30, 2026.

Anna Covert [00:01:36]: Rob comes from a deep background in all things finance. He’s been a CFO, financial advisor, wealth strategy management consultant, and founder, so he really understands why small businesses hit growth ceilings.

Anna Covert [00:01:50]: In his upcoming book, he shares the Breakpoint Framework, which provides real-world examples and understanding for entrepreneurs to better understand their numbers, overcome limits, and scale with intention. Thanks so much for being here today.

Rob Aquino [00:02:06]: Thank you, Anna, for having me. I’m excited to talk.

Anna Covert [00:02:09]: To kick us off, we like to begin our story with the little Rob CliffsNotes version of how you got from where you were to where you are right now.

Rob Aquino [00:02:18]: I like to say I grew up in small businesses. Both my parents were entrepreneurs. All of my aunts and uncles growing up were entrepreneurs, and we primarily had bodegas. We grew up in New York as Dominican-American immigrants, and the bodega was the place you went for everything: coffee, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and household goods.

Rob Aquino [00:02:58]: My mom raised us primarily by herself, and she was operating businesses. That meant no clocking in and out, no nine-to-five. Half my childhood was inside a business in a bodega.

Rob Aquino [00:03:18]: I worked inside JBS while I was in high school at my stepfather and brother’s accounting firm. I decided to study accounting because it was what I knew. I studied finance and accounting, went into wealth management with Northwestern Mutual, learned how to build a business, and naturally worked with entrepreneurs as my ideal client profile.

Rob Aquino [00:03:42]: I did a lot of estate planning, retirement planning, and M&A activity, helping entrepreneurs whose whole net worth was their business figure out how to liquidate effectively and go into retirement. My brother had been recruiting me for many years. COVID hit, and that changed everything for us. I’ve been here for about six years now, really scaling the firm.

Anna Covert [00:04:01]: You’ve done some incredible scale. I was reading your bio. Was it 500% growth? How did you get there?

Rob Aquino [00:04:08]: We’ve 5X’d since I’ve been working with my brother. A few ways we got there. I think this is a common misconception in scale: you don’t get to growth by adding. You get to growth by subtracting.

Rob Aquino [00:04:25]: When I came to JBS, we had about 15 services. We did tax prep during tax season, and off season we did almost anything you could do with an administrative team and air conditioning in the summer. Translation services, audit cases, sales tax, payroll services, and at one point we were a travel agency.

Rob Aquino [00:04:56]: The first thing I started doing was removing everything that wasn’t tax. Enhancing our focus, understanding pricing strategy, the market, bottlenecks, and the thing bringing in 98% of the revenue. We were able to double that relatively quickly.

Rob Aquino [00:05:15]: Then I realized the real market demand was B2B. People wanted to understand their books, do corporate tax returns, start businesses, and get support. We started that product from zero, and now it represents about 40% of the business.

Anna Covert [00:05:34]: That’s incredible. Congratulations. When did you decide now was the time to write this book?

Rob Aquino [00:05:48]: I’ve always wanted to write books. Ever since high school. My mom and I had a conversation when I was a sophomore or junior. She said, “Son, I hope you make a lot of money someday because you like a nice lifestyle. Whatever you study in college, I’m not going to choose for you, but pick something that earns well.”

Rob Aquino [00:06:22]: She didn’t know this, but I was sitting there thinking I wanted to be a writer. When she said that, I thought, “Writers don’t make money.” So I studied accounting because I knew the tax business was there.

Rob Aquino [00:06:50]: When I went into wealth management, they gave this 21-year-old writer access to wealth management tools and retirement planning. I joined the FIRE movement, which stands for financial independence, retire early.

Rob Aquino [00:07:12]: The premise is: why work 40 years to retire 20 or 30 years if you could work 10 or 20 years and retire for 40? The caveat is you have to save 50% or more of your income.

Rob Aquino [00:07:30]: I thought I would work hard, retire at 40, and then write. About a year and a half ago, Harper phoned me and asked if I had ever thought about writing a book. I said yes. We talked about it, and he asked about my business process. That’s how The Small Business Money Game was born.

Anna Covert [00:07:47]: What was the book you wanted to write?

Rob Aquino [00:07:49]: It’s a book that tries to synthesize and study the philosophy of success. I want to spend my life researching where the barriers are personally and sociologically, not just financially. That will require probably a decade of research before I start writing.

Anna Covert [00:08:16]: That sounds fun. What do you think are the most common reasons small businesses hit a ceiling?

Rob Aquino [00:08:33]: There are two easy ones nobody wants to talk about. The first is that the hardest thing a person can do financially is start and grow a business because you’re in this paradox: to get to the next level, you need more resources, but to get the resources, you need to be at the next level.

Rob Aquino [00:09:08]: Of all the entrepreneurs I’ve worked with, resourcefulness is the common trait I see over and over. You have to get it done with what you have, even though it’s nearly impossible.

Rob Aquino [00:09:25]: The second is that a lot of people starting businesses today have been romanticized into thinking starting a business is easy, lifestyle-based, or the obvious way to go. Many figure out the hard way three, five, or ten years in that it isn’t the case.

Anna Covert [00:09:45]: You have to be comfortable failing too. I work with entrepreneurs launching brands, and I’ve seen industries shift quickly. Solar is one of my specialties, and with changes to the federal tax credit, many small businesses are having to pivot. Tell me more about your framework.

Rob Aquino [00:10:22]: I love the wave analogy. I use waves and ocean as a way to think about the market, like this vast open ocean.

Rob Aquino [00:10:45]: People build their boat on shore. When you’re building a business, you have all these ideas, and it feels good in the bay. Then you go all in, leave the job or hire the person before you can afford them, and enter the open market.

Rob Aquino [00:11:20]: Then you realize things get stormy. There are other boats out there and they’re big. If you get too close, they can capsize you. You realize the boat you built on shore is too small to carry the resources you have, so you have to manage that boat while building another one in the ocean.

Rob Aquino [00:11:50]: That’s a lot like strategic planning in business. Most people don’t realize when the boat gets too small and they need to build a bigger one. People also learn how to grow, hire, build benefits, and create compensation plans, but no one prepares them for when it’s time to shrink.

Anna Covert [00:12:46]: We have to talk about AI. How is AI impacting your framework in both positive and negative ways?

Rob Aquino [00:12:50]: I’ll start with the negative so I can end more positively. People feel like they’re going to get disrupted, but no one really knows how.

Rob Aquino [00:13:08]: In the SMB landscape, clients may think they can be more self-reliant now. Maybe they don’t need bookkeeping support or marketing services. They’ll probably do some things they shouldn’t do and later realize they made mistakes.

Rob Aquino [00:13:40]: In the meantime, that may create a cash flow squeeze. Larger incumbents may also try to compete because it is cheap enough to do so.

Rob Aquino [00:13:58]: But I was at lunch with banker partners, and it was interesting to see clients leaving big banks that have acquired smaller firms and going back to relationship bankers because they want to work with a human. In many ways, I think it will be positive for human relationships. The boring stuff will get automated.

Rob Aquino [00:14:20]: What I worry about is the recurring dream of people’s AIs talking to each other. You send me an email using AI, then I use my AI to respond. Are we even talking at that point?

Anna Covert [00:14:34]: That’s really interesting. It could be a sci-fi movie.

Rob Aquino [00:14:38]: I wonder how decisions are going to get made. If I’m pitching services, am I pitching you or am I pitching a large language model? I’m trying to do more physical work, in-person work, and Zoom work instead of endless back-and-forth email.

Rob Aquino [00:15:12]: On the positive side, AI will lower the barrier to entry on many products and services. It will allow small teams to compete with large players. Over time, my theory is that we won’t really need 10,000-person companies, and that’s good because it may bring humanity back to capitalism.

Anna Covert [00:15:39]: I think it may happen faster than 30 years with the way AI is growing right now.

Rob Aquino [00:15:46]: You may be right. The more consolidation that occurs, the harder it is for the economy as a whole to do well.

Anna Covert [00:16:02]: What are some of the other Breakpoint Framework tips that can help people today?

Rob Aquino [00:16:09]: I’ll walk through the first couple steps. Across about 3,500 clients, I’ve had access to sensitive data: tax returns, bank statements, P&Ls, balance sheets, and so on.

Rob Aquino [00:16:35]: I found correlations across industries and company sizes. I identified seven breakpoints that take businesses from zero to $25 million in revenue. I call them identity layers.

Rob Aquino [00:16:55]: In the beginning, you’re the salesperson and founder. You’re trying to get someone to buy something from you, and that takes you to about $100K.

Rob Aquino [00:17:10]: From $100K to a quarter million, you face the decision of whether to stay a solopreneur or build a company. From $250K to $500K, you face the hiring challenge. You need to hire real technicians, salespeople, delivery people, and product people.

Rob Aquino [00:17:35]: Now you have to become a recruiter. You had to learn sales, then build a company, and now recruit. The learning never stops. People get stuck at the role they can do themselves.

Rob Aquino [00:17:50]: Two things occur: they can’t become the operator, CEO, or shareholder, or they don’t know how to hire that person. The combination of those things is where most people flatline.

Anna Covert [00:17:59]: I can see that. It reminds me of the Peter Principle and asking whether you want to stretch.

Rob Aquino [00:18:15]: I work with high-income W-2 people who decide they’re so good at something that they’ll start a business. Then they wonder why people don’t want to buy from them or why it’s hard to sell.

Rob Aquino [00:18:40]: They thought because they cooked well or knew computers well that they could convince people to enter a service engagement. That’s a whole separate skill. They don’t see that they’re a rookie again and have to learn this new skill.

Anna Covert [00:19:20]: It’s easy to decide you don’t want to look at the credit card statements or finances. We do a lot of technology consulting and often find companies paying for software they don’t even use.

Anna Covert [00:19:57]: How do you help people understand their numbers?

Rob Aquino [00:20:10]: People are scared of their books and finances. Much of the early book focuses on your relationship with money. I call it the money game because I try to simplify things.

Rob Aquino [00:20:38]: Have you played Monopoly?

Anna Covert [00:20:42]: I love Monopoly. I was a Monopoly queen.

Rob Aquino [00:20:58]: The Small Business Money Game was an idea that came to me in 2014. I called it the Monopoly Theory. I told my brother Alex, “Isn’t it crazy how much the real world is like a large game of Monopoly?”

Rob Aquino [00:21:20]: We have a central bank. We have players making luck-based rolls. A lot of this is luck, but it’s also what you do with the luck. Depending on where you land, you still have to buy and negotiate.

Rob Aquino [00:21:43]: Monopoly has a fascinating history. Lizzie Magie invented and patented it in the early 1900s as The Landlord’s Game. She built it to teach about the downsides of capitalism, particularly concentrated land ownership.

Anna Covert [00:22:25]: That makes sense. Once you own a strip or corner, that changes everything. I liked the red and orange corner because it was cheaper to buy and build on.

Rob Aquino [00:23:03]: You’re a master Monopoly player. Statistically, if you buy orange or red, you’re likely to win. Not just because of return on investment, but because those are the most likely places for people to land.

Rob Aquino [00:23:40]: Monopoly is luck-based but also skill-based. You picked up pattern recognition. We all start with the same amount of money and income in the game, but inequality shows up quickly. Why? Because while luck matters, skill matters too.

Rob Aquino [00:24:38]: In the official rulebook, the bank technically cannot run out of money. If the bank runs out, you cut pieces of paper and write amounts on them. That is like quantitative easing.

Rob Aquino [00:25:40]: If you take Monopoly principles and apply them to the fact that life is an infinite game, it is virtually the same game.

Anna Covert [00:26:10]: Someone basically stole the game and renamed it Monopoly?

Rob Aquino [00:26:19]: There was a long lawsuit. There were two versions of Magie’s game: a cooperative version and the monopolist rules. The monopolist rules became the commercial version.

Anna Covert [00:27:26]: Now there’s every version. I’m a traditionalist. I like the classic one.

Rob Aquino [00:27:42]: I grew up playing games. Have you ever played Acquire?

Anna Covert [00:27:57]: I have not.

Rob Aquino [00:27:59]: You’d like that one. It’s trading stocks and things like that.

Anna Covert [00:28:23]: My dad played Acquire and backgammon. He was from New York.

Rob Aquino [00:28:29]: Chapter two is titled Starting from Go. In Monopoly, we all start at go and with the same amount of money. In life, we know it doesn’t work that way.

Anna Covert [00:29:00]: My dad owned Aspen Ski Tours, which eventually became Ski.com.

Rob Aquino [00:30:01]: That’s a very innovative entrepreneur. He pivoted multiple times. You saw that in real time behind the scenes.

Anna Covert [00:30:45]: I started my first company when I was eight. It was a dog babysitting company called Canine Villas.

Rob Aquino [00:31:06]: One of the strongest correlations of successful entrepreneurs is that they sold something as children.

Anna Covert [00:31:46]: I was selling drawings to my parents. They weren’t getting them for free.

Rob Aquino [00:31:58]: We all form a relationship with money very early, often between ages five and twelve. The way we see money and value gets formed early.

Rob Aquino [00:32:30]: Many people grow up with scarcity and money fears. Part of the work is changing how entrepreneurs view money, because it’s not as scarce as they think.

Rob Aquino [00:33:25]: There is also the idea of bartering. People think money started as bartering, then paper and metals. But anthropologists have found that there was never a civilization that bartered at scale. Instead, the oldest writing we have includes debt covenants from Mesopotamia.

Anna Covert [00:35:02]: A lot of people don’t realize the Federal Reserve is not the government.

Rob Aquino [00:35:49]: One quote I open a chapter with is from Henry Ford. I’ll paraphrase: it’s well enough that Americans don’t understand money, fiat currency, and central banking, because if they did, there would be a revolution by tomorrow morning.

Rob Aquino [00:36:36]: Fundamentally, money has always been about trust. Whether you go back to 3000 BC or today, money is something we agree upon and trust until we don’t. Government imposes that trust, and banks help create and control the flow of money.

Rob Aquino [00:37:50]: If I had to condense what money is fundamentally, I think it’s the language we all speak.

Anna Covert [00:38:04]: It’s also frequency and energy. Money has to flow. If it doesn’t flow, it gets around the blockage like water.

Rob Aquino [00:38:45]: Investing is a form of spending that continues the flow, because ideally it comes back with return.

Rob Aquino [00:39:35]: Proximity to the bank is critical. If we were talking about a water source, the people closest to it would get water first and get more water. Banks control the flow of money, and people with strong banking relationships pool more capital.

Anna Covert [00:40:21]: What was one turning point in your career that changed your view of leadership and growth?

Rob Aquino [00:40:26]: COVID. Nobody understands where they sit in the ocean until the tide comes out.

Rob Aquino [00:40:50]: In March 2020, I was still an advisor. The stock market had its largest drop in the shortest amount of time, and I spent two weeks convincing clients not to sell their stocks.

Rob Aquino [00:41:20]: Then my brother had all these missed calls from small businesses asking what they were going to do. Federal relief required tax returns and financials, and many small businesses did not have either up to date.

Rob Aquino [00:41:50]: I had to decide whether to build my wealth management business or help my brother’s firm solve the bookkeeping and accounting shortage for the community. I decided to help JBS build a bookkeeping business so businesses could get grants, and I never looked back.

Anna Covert [00:43:15]: COVID was a growth opportunity for my business because I specialized in digital advertising. But we also lost clients in tourism and had to look to the mainland for more work.

Anna Covert [00:45:00]: I tried to refinance my house during COVID, and because I own my own business, the process took about nine months because banks wanted W-2s.

Rob Aquino [00:45:30]: Banks often don’t fundamentally understand entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are seen as risky until they are crushing it at $25 or $50 million plus. Then banks want to be their best friend.

Rob Aquino [00:46:00]: Accounting, banking, and money are languages. Entrepreneurs don’t always speak them. We help cover the gap by providing the reports and explanations banks need.

Anna Covert [00:47:22]: This has been wonderful. How can people get ahold of you, and what’s your book launch sequence?

Rob Aquino [00:47:30]: I’ll be doing more conversations like this. I have three young kids, so I’m trying not to do a physical book tour. The book will be available everywhere: Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target. Our pre-order sales are doing very well.

Rob Aquino [00:48:12]: I’m also actively writing on Substack with a weekly newsletter where I continue the money game, not just the small business one.

Anna Covert [00:48:49]: Thank you so much. We’ll provide all of Rob’s links and his book in the channel below on YouTube. Please join me next week as I interview another industry expert on topics to help you succeed on and offline.

Anna Covert [00:49:10]: If you have not done so already, please subscribe to this channel. We are just shy of 200,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha. Continue to share this content if it feels compelling with your friends and family so I can get more great guests like Rob to share their wisdom and passion with us. I’ll see you next week in the pixels. Aloha!

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What ChatGPT Advertising Means for the Future of Digital Marketing

By |2026-06-19T03:05:01+00:00June 2nd, 2026|Extended Content|

A series of major platform shifts tell the history of digital marketing.

First came websites.

Then search engines.

Then social media.

Then mobile.

Now, artificial intelligence is reshaping how consumers find information and make purchasing decisions.

The rise of ChatGPT and other AI-powered platforms is creating a new marketing frontier that business leaders can no longer ignore.

From Search Engines to Answer Engines

For years, marketers focused on ranking webpages.

Today, consumers increasingly ask AI systems direct questions:

  • Who is the best company for this service?
  • Which provider should I trust?
  • What agency should I hire?
  • What product is best for my situation?
  • Who is the expert in this industry?

Instead of presenting a long list of search results, AI platforms often provide direct answers.

That changes everything.

Businesses now need to optimize not only for search engines but also for answer engines.

This is one of the reasons I wrote The Covert Code: to help business owners better understand the rules of digital marketing and how to make smarter decisions online.

Understanding ChatGPT Advertising

ChatGPT advertising and sponsored placements are part of a larger shift toward conversational discovery.

As AI platforms continue to grow, businesses will need to understand how to appear in AI-generated recommendations, sponsored placements, and conversational search results.

This does not mean traditional SEO is going away.

It means SEO is evolving.

The brands that succeed will be the ones that combine SEO, AEO, paid media, content strategy, authority building, reputation management, and AI visibility tracking.

The New Digital Marketing Funnel

The traditional digital marketing funnel often looked like this:

Awareness → Search → Website → Conversion

The AI-powered funnel looks more like this:

Question → Recommendation → Website → Conversion

Notice what changes.

The search results page may no longer be the main point of discovery.

That means AI needs to understand your business before the customer ever reaches your website.

Why Authority Matters More Than Ever

AI platforms are designed to organize information and provide useful answers. To achieve that, they look for signals of trust, credibility, and relevance.

Those signals may include helpful website content, clear service descriptions, reviews, external mentions, podcast appearances, thought leadership, structured data, and industry-specific expertise.

This is why authority is becoming one of the most important assets in modern marketing.

Through The Covert Code Podcast, I regularly speak with business leaders, founders, marketers, authors, and innovators about what it takes to build trust in a crowded digital world.

AI is accelerating that conversation.

What Is AEO?

AEO stands for Answer Engine Optimization.

It is the process of structuring your content so AI platforms can better understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, and why your business is credible.

A strong AEO strategy may include FAQ content, schema markup, topic clusters, internal linking, local SEO, service page optimization, review strategy, digital PR, podcast content, and authority-focused blog posts.

You can also explore more marketing tools and insights through The Covert Code free resources.

How Businesses Can Prepare

Businesses that want to prepare for AI search and ChatGPT advertising should start with a visibility audit.

Important questions include:

  • Does AI know your company exists?
  • Is your business mentioned when customers ask relevant questions?
  • Are competitors showing up more often than you?
  • Is your website structured clearly?
  • Do you have enough authority signals?
  • Are your services straightforward for AI systems to understand?
  • Are you tracking AI referral traffic and leads?

If the answer to any of these questions is unclear, your business may need an AI visibility strategy.

How Covert Communication Can Help

At Covert Communication, we help businesses improve their visibility across search engines, answer engines, and emerging AI platforms.

Our team supports businesses with SEO, AEO, AI-ready content, ChatGPT advertising strategy, paid media, website optimization, digital PR, authority building, AI visibility reporting, and lead generation strategy.

The goal is not just to get more clicks.

The goal is to make your business easier to find, trust, and choose.

Interested businesses can contact Covert Communication to learn more about AI Visibility Assessments and ChatGPT advertising opportunities.

Final Thoughts

ChatGPT advertising may become one of the next major digital advertising channels.

But even before AI ads become mainstream, AI visibility is already influencing how people discover businesses online.

The future of marketing is conversational.

The question is not whether AI will impact your business.

The question is whether your business will be part of the answers AI provides.

To keep learning, explore The Covert Code News & Events, listen to The Covert Code Podcast, or contact us to start a conversation.

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Episode 115 – Lou Chatta

By |2026-06-09T21:17:33+00:00May 28th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The AI Experience Economy: How Pintours Is Reimagining Travel with Lou Chatta

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Lou Chatta, founder of Pintours, to discuss the AI Experience Economy and how artificial intelligence is transforming the way people travel, explore, and connect with places around the world.

Lou’s company is building an AI-powered orchestration layer for travel experiences, combining transportation, attractions, restaurants, local knowledge, and personalization into one seamless journey. Instead of forcing travelers into generic group tours or expensive private guide experiences, Pintours is using AI to make personalized, guided experiences more accessible, scalable, and affordable.

From Apple Special Projects to AI-Powered Travel

Before launching Pintours, Lou worked at Apple Special Projects, where he helped develop health-focused products and technologies. That experience showed him how to turn subject matter expertise into powerful technology.

The inspiration for Pintours came from something much more personal: his father was a tour guide. Lou saw firsthand how much knowledge local guides carry in their heads and how difficult it is to scale that kind of expertise.

That became the central idea behind Pintours: what if the knowledge of local guides could be digitized and used to create personalized experiences for anyone, anywhere?

Why Generic Travel Experiences Fall Short

One of the biggest problems Lou identified is that most travel experiences are generic. A group tour may work for logistics, but it often fails to meet the needs of individual travelers.

Some people want history. Some want food. Some want romance, adventure, shopping, family-friendly experiences, accessibility, or a very specific pace. A private guide can personalize the journey, but that kind of experience is often expensive and difficult to scale.

Pintours is trying to solve that gap.

How Pintours Works

Lou described Pintours as an AI orchestration layer. In simple terms, it acts almost like a best friend who knows your preferences and can plan the experience for you.

A traveler might say they have only one hour in a destination, want to learn about history, need transportation, and want food afterward. Pintours can then help coordinate the transportation, tickets, storytelling, restaurant reservation, and timing into one connected experience.

The experience can also be adapted for each person. A parent, child, and grandparent could all be in the same location but receive storytelling tailored to their interests.

That level of personalization is where AI becomes especially powerful.

Empowering Local Guides

One of the most important parts of the Pintours model is that it does not simply replace local guides. It creates a way for guides to turn their knowledge into a scalable income stream.

Pintours works with local guides by interviewing them, gathering their expertise, and building AI-powered experiences based on their knowledge. When people use those experiences, guides earn money from the content and expertise they contributed.

This is a powerful example of how AI not only automates but also empowers people with deep local knowledge.

AI, Trust, and the Future of Travel

We also talked about trust and safety, especially as Pintours expands into more global destinations. Lou explained that the platform can help travelers feel more secure by coordinating transportation, tracking experiences, offering support, and creating a more structured journey.

That is especially meaningful in unfamiliar destinations where travelers may not know which vendors to trust or how to navigate the area safely.

AI can help personalize the experience, but it can also help create confidence.

The FIFA World Cup Opportunity

One of the most exciting parts of the conversation was hearing how Pintours is working with FIFA World Cup host cities. The opportunity is not just about what happens inside the stadium. It is about what visitors do before and after the match.

Travelers coming into host cities will need restaurants, transportation, attractions, local experiences, and personalized recommendations. Pintours is building experiences that extend beyond the stadium and help visitors explore each city in a more intentional way.

That is a major shift in how destinations can think about tourism, events, and economic impact.

AI Is Already Powering More Than We Realize

Lou also pointed out that many people may not realize how much AI is already powering the apps, services, and experiences they use every day.

From customer service to logistics, reservations, recommendations, and operational efficiency, AI is increasingly working behind the scenes. Pin Tours is bringing that intelligence into the live experience itself, helping people navigate the real world with greater personalization and ease.

This connects directly to many of the AI and digital transformation conversations I explore through AnnaCovert.com and The Covert Code.

A New Revenue Stream for Guides and Creators

For people who know a city, a neighborhood, a park, a food scene, or a cultural experience deeply, Pin Tours creates an opportunity to turn that expertise into income.

Lou invited people from anywhere in the world to apply as guides or drivers through Pintours.com. Even if someone does not live in a specific city, they may still be able to contribute knowledge about places they know well.

This opens the door for a new kind of experience creator economy.

The Future of Personalized Exploration

This episode was a fascinating look at how AI is moving beyond screens and into real-world experiences. Travel is no longer just about booking flights and hotels. It is about designing meaningful moments.

Pin Tours is showing what happens when local expertise, artificial intelligence, transportation, reservations, and storytelling come together in one personalized journey.

The future of travel may not be about choosing from a fixed itinerary.

It may be about having the experience built around you.

Listen to the Full Episode

Watch the full episode of The Covert Code Podcast featuring Lou Chatta and learn more about the future of AI-powered travel.

You can also connect with Lou on LinkedIn or explore Pin Tours at pintours.com.

And if you’re interested in conversations around AI, authority, innovation, leadership, and the future of digital transformation, explore more episodes and articles at:

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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

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Transcript: The AI Experience Economy with Lou Chatta

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Lou Chatta

Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I’m coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu. This week on The Covert Code, the topic is the AI Experience Economy.

Anna Covert [00:00:14]: My very special guest is Lou Chatta, founder of Pin Tours, who’s building an orchestration layer behind a $1.5 trillion market combining travel, transportation, events, and leisure into a seamless personal shopping experience with partners like Uber and GetYourGuide, as well as working with FIFA World Cup host cities.

Anna Covert [00:00:37]: Today, we’ll be diving into how AI is transforming experiences as we know it. I’m so excited to be having this conversation. Thanks so much for being here today.

Lou Chatta [00:00:53]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to dive in and tell you more about how Pin Tours is transforming experiences all over the world.

Anna Covert [00:00:59]: Let’s jump in. I like to begin with the CliffsNotes version. Where did you start, and how did you get to where you are right now?

Lou Chatta [00:01:11]: Before launching Pin Tours, I was at Apple Special Projects, working with the R&D team that creates new products behind what Apple ships. I was on the health team, and any product in health that you see today, my team touched.

Lou Chatta [00:01:35]: We worked with subject matter experts and built new technologies around what they knew, specifically doctors and what they had seen in their industry. I spent seven years there and launched a lot of products, including EKG, journals, and many others.

Lou Chatta [00:01:55]: My dad was a tour guide, and I started thinking about how the same things we were doing with doctors could apply to travel. Guided experiences are the most luxurious and best type of experience because someone who knows you personally can show you around and turn something generic into something meaningful.

Lou Chatta [00:02:40]: The problem is that it is expensive and does not scale. Private guide experiences are usually reserved for more luxurious travelers. Most businesses and experiences either do not offer them or offer generic headsets and group guides.

Lou Chatta [00:03:28]: We wanted to solve that. We found that guides have immense knowledge of the world and the places they know, but all that knowledge exists in their heads. We leverage the knowledge they have built over years and build AI around it.

Lou Chatta [00:04:00]: Pin Tours AI works with locals in different areas and digitizes their experience into an AI that works for anyone. Now anyone in the world can use our technology and have a personalized experience anywhere they go.

Lou Chatta [00:04:35]: We are powering drives with Uber, attractions, parks, pop-up experiences, tours, and some really cool work with World Cup host cities. When people come to the U.S. for the World Cup, we are building out experiences in the stadium, outside the stadium, and into the cities, making it fully personalized.

Anna Covert [00:05:19]: That’s amazing. Living in Hawaii, which is all about experience, I really resonate with what you’re saying. Give me an example. If I’m on a cruise and want a private tour in a historical location, how would that customer journey work with Pin Tours?

Lou Chatta [00:07:03]: Let’s say you’re going on a cruise. We partner with cruise lines, so you may see it in the app you booked through. We ask what you’re looking for because everyone wants something different. Maybe you want to dive deep into history, but you only have one hour and you’re hungry.

Lou Chatta [00:07:45]: We take all of that into consideration, including budget and restrictions. We can get you a chauffeur, reserve tickets, build out your tour, personalize the storytelling from pickup to the site, and even book a restaurant afterward.

Lou Chatta [00:08:20]: The experience is personalized to your language, your travel style, and what you care about. Some people want deep history. Some want photos and fun. Whatever kind of traveler you are, we build the journey around that.

Anna Covert [00:09:14]: If I have my daughter and my mom with me, and we all have different interests, can we each have our own custom experience?

Lou Chatta [00:09:39]: Absolutely. Everyone can have their own device and build their own personal experience. We can also create a group experience that ties everyone together, calling out different people’s interests while you are listening together.

Anna Covert [00:10:00]: How are you getting this information? Are you sitting down with experts in each location?

Lou Chatta [00:10:19]: We work exclusively with local guides. We interview them for one or two hours and dive deep into the locations they know, what is special, and what they recommend. Then we build tours and experiences from that data.

Lou Chatta [00:10:40]: The best part is that we are empowering guides. Anytime an experience is used, the guides make money. They own their knowledge, and we are giving them a new way to share it without having to be physically there.

Anna Covert [00:11:13]: That makes me think about people who cannot travel because of age or injury. Is this something that could eventually include virtual experiences?

Lou Chatta [00:11:30]: Today we are focused on real-life experiences, but down the line, we could absolutely explore VR, videos, and immersive storytelling for people who cannot physically be there.

Anna Covert [00:11:58]: Where are you launching right now?

Lou Chatta [00:12:11]: We launched in San Francisco last year and tested the app. Now we are in growth mode, expanding into Honolulu, New York, and LA. Then we want to reach all 11 World Cup host cities.

Anna Covert [00:12:31]: What are your thoughts on AI and the future of experiences?

Lou Chatta [00:12:57]: AI is going to come everywhere. It is not something we should be afraid of. We should look at ways to use it to our advantage. In San Francisco, we already have self-driving cars and AI-powered experiences. AI is here.

Lou Chatta [00:13:35]: We are careful about how we introduce it. We focus on personalization and empowering tour guides. It is the same experience you would have with a human tour guide, just more scalable.

Anna Covert [00:14:10]: What about AI hallucinations or feedback loops? How do you improve the system?

Lou Chatta [00:14:29]: After every experience, we ask customers to review it. Every time we get feedback, the system gets better. We learn what you like and don’t like, so the next experience is better. We

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