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Episode 125 – Tyrone Johnson

By |2026-08-04T22:17:56+00:00August 6th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Beyond the Deal: What Every CEO Needs to Know About Private Equity Success

For many entrepreneurs, selling a business represents the finish line. Years of hard work culminate in an acquisition, a successful exit, and what appears to be the realization of the American dream.

But according to Tyrone Johnson, that’s where an entirely new journey begins.

In Episode 125 of The Covert Code Podcast, host Anna Covert sits down with Tyrone, CEO of Cascade Residential Services, Operating Partner at Thrive Capital, and author of Beyond the Deal: A CEO’s Guide to Private Equity Success, to discuss what happens after private equity enters the picture—and why many leaders underestimate the transition.

Drawing from decades of executive leadership and operational experience, Tyrone shares practical lessons on preparing a company for investment, leading through change, building scalable organizations, and embracing emerging technologies like artificial intelligence.

The Deal Isn’t the Destination

Many founders spend years preparing to sell their companies. They focus on increasing revenue, improving profitability, and making their business attractive to investors.

But once the transaction closes, expectations change dramatically.

Private equity firms aren’t simply purchasing financial statements—they’re investing in leadership, execution, scalability, and long-term enterprise value.

According to Tyrone, many CEOs underestimate how different life becomes after the acquisition.

The reporting structure changes. Decision-making changes. Accountability increases. Success is no longer measured solely by revenue but by operational excellence, sustainable growth, and value creation.

People Build Enterprise Value

While technology continues to transform business, Tyrone emphasizes that people remain the foundation of every successful organization.

Leadership teams, company culture, accountability, and employee development often determine whether an investment succeeds or struggles.

Private equity firms recognize that systems matter—but great systems still require exceptional people to execute them.

Companies that invest in developing leaders throughout the organization create stronger, more resilient businesses capable of scaling far beyond their founders.

Preparing Before Investors Arrive

Many business owners believe they’ll organize their operations after attracting investors.

Tyrone recommends the opposite.

Companies should build scalable systems long before entering conversations with private equity firms.

That includes documenting processes, improving financial reporting, strengthening operational consistency, investing in technology, and ensuring leadership teams can operate effectively without relying on a single individual.

Businesses that prepare early create more options—and often command significantly higher valuations.

Artificial Intelligence Is Changing Private Equity

Artificial intelligence is rapidly transforming every industry, and private equity is no exception.

Tyrone explains that AI is helping organizations analyze larger amounts of information, identify trends more quickly, and improve operational decision-making.

Rather than replacing executive judgment, AI becomes another tool that allows leadership teams to make faster, more informed decisions.

Organizations willing to embrace AI responsibly may gain a meaningful competitive advantage as investment firms increasingly evaluate technology readiness during acquisitions.

Throughout The Covert Code Podcast, Anna frequently explores how artificial intelligence can help businesses become more efficient while preserving the human expertise that ultimately drives innovation.

Culture Becomes a Competitive Advantage

Financial performance matters.

But investors increasingly recognize that sustainable growth depends on company culture.

Organizations with strong leadership, healthy communication, clear accountability, and engaged employees are better positioned to execute growth strategies after an acquisition.

Culture isn’t a soft skill.

It’s a measurable business asset.

Companies with strong cultures often experience lower turnover, stronger customer satisfaction, and greater operational consistency.

Scaling Requires Different Leadership

One of the biggest transitions founders experience is evolving from entrepreneur to enterprise leader.

The skills required to launch a business are not always the same skills required to scale one.

As organizations grow, CEOs must delegate more effectively, trust their leadership teams, develop future executives, and focus on long-term strategic thinking instead of daily operations.

That evolution can be uncomfortable—but it’s often necessary for continued growth.

Execution Creates Value

Ideas are important.

Vision matters.

Strategy provides direction.

But execution ultimately determines enterprise value.

Tyrone explains that businesses consistently delivering operational excellence, measurable performance, disciplined execution, and continuous improvement become significantly more attractive to investors.

Private equity firms aren’t simply investing in today’s numbers.

They’re investing in confidence that tomorrow’s numbers will continue improving.

Final Thoughts

Whether you’re preparing to sell your company, considering outside investment, or simply trying to build a stronger organization, this conversation offers valuable perspective on leadership, growth, and long-term value creation.

Tyrone reminds entrepreneurs that the acquisition isn’t the end of the story.

It’s often the beginning of an entirely new chapter.

If you’re building a business designed to last—not just one designed to sell—this episode provides practical advice every CEO should hear.


Watch the Full Episode

Watch Episode 125 of The Covert Code Podcast featuring Tyrone R. Johnson.

Learn more about Tyrone at tyronerjohnson.com.

Discover Cascade Residential Services.

Learn more about Thrive Capital.

Purchase Beyond the Deal: A CEO’s Guide to Private Equity Success from Forbes Books.

Explore more interviews with business leaders on The Covert Code Podcast.

Learn more about host Anna Covert and her work in AI, digital marketing, privacy, and business growth.

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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

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Beyond the Deal: What It Really Takes to Win in Private Equity

The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Tyrone R. Johnson

Book: Beyond the Deal: A CEO’s Guide to Private Equity Success


Anna Covert [00:00:04]:

Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I am coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

This week on The Covert Code, the topic is Beyond the Deal: What It Really Takes to Win in Private Equity.

My very special guest is Tyrone R. Johnson, CEO of Cascade Residential Services, operating partner at Thrive Capital, and author of Beyond the Deal: A CEO’s Guide to Private Equity Success.

With more than 20 years of executive leadership experience, Ty has worked with Fortune 500 companies, private equity firms, turnarounds, and startups. He has deep expertise in the technology, industrial, and financial sectors.

Today, we will be talking about what happens after the deal closes, why execution is key, and how leaders can succeed in private equity-backed businesses.

Thanks so much for being here, Ty.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:00:59]:

Thank you for having me. It is a real pleasure.

Anna Covert [00:01:01]:

To get us started, we love the CliffsNotes version of the Ty story.

You are such an interesting person. How did you get from where you were to where you are now? What do you think is important for our listeners to know about you?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:01:13]:

I fell into private equity accidentally.

I came from a blue-chip corporate background. I worked at GE early in my career and moved around quite a bit.

Someone I previously worked with eventually joined a private equity-backed business. I went to join him, caught the bug, and have now been doing this for more than 20 years.

What I love about private equity is that it is very challenging but also extremely rewarding.

If you perform well, every few years you may receive a new opportunity. It is not monotonous.

I love the challenge, and I love building and scaling businesses. It is the perfect environment for me.

Anna Covert [00:01:50]:

Where are you located now?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:01:52]:

I am currently in Florida.

Anna Covert [00:01:54]:

Why did you decide to write this book?

Was writing a book something you always wanted to do, or had you been working on it for years? Tell me the story behind the book.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:02:09]:

It was not something I had always planned to do, and I had not been working on a book for the previous ten years.

The idea came from conversations I had with CEOs who were new to private equity.

At conferences and in other settings, people would pull me aside because I had experience and ask for my thoughts on being a first-time private equity CEO.

Over the years, I recognized a major gap in knowledge and experience.

As far as I could tell, there were not many strong resources available to help those leaders make the transition.

I decided to write a book that might make the transition smoother, less intimidating, and hopefully more successful.

Anna Covert [00:02:58]:

What are some of the biggest problems or challenges that come up for first-time private equity CEOs?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:03:10]:

It is a very different environment.

Many of the companies our firm works with were previously founder-led organizations. They were built by entrepreneurs who are receiving institutional capital for the first time.

That creates a very different business environment.

Think about it this way: The founder may have a boss for the first time.

They are now reporting to someone and must answer to someone. That can be difficult for certain operators.

Private equity is also a very fast-paced environment, which can make the transition challenging.

There is also a different financial language associated with private equity.

There is EBITDA and a long list of other acronyms used to measure performance and determine whether a business is doing well.

The company may also need to enter growth mode in a different way than the founder is accustomed to.

Part of that growth may involve mergers and acquisitions.

Buying companies, integrating them properly, and ensuring the management team can execute may all be new experiences.

I try to walk leaders through those transitions and help them understand the best way, based on my experience, to build a sustainable business that creates meaningful value.

Anna Covert [00:04:38]:

I can imagine that feels like a whole new world, as Aladdin would call it.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:04:44]:

It is an entirely new world.

There is a lot of material about the deal itself: how to sell your company, how to reach the transaction, and how to position the company for success.

I did not see much material about what happens next.

That is what was missing in my conversations with CEOs.

The deal is finished, and perhaps the founder has received a large check, but now what?

This book answers the question, “Now what?”

Anna Covert [00:05:16]:

That is very important, especially when you think about operating with the end in mind.

We recently had another guest discussing exit planning, and this takes the conversation one step further.

People become very excited about selling or receiving the investment, but what happens afterward?

Is there sometimes a major letdown after a founder reaches that goal and wonders what comes next?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:05:43]:

There can definitely be a letdown.

In some cases, there is also remorse.

Founders may miss their independence. It is no longer entirely their company or their baby.

They now attend board meetings, deliver presentations, and answer questions they may never have faced before.

That can be uncomfortable.

It is not always that they have become disinterested because they received a large check. The entire operating system has changed, and some founders do not like the new environment.

Other founders adapt and do a fantastic job.

You do not always know which situation you have until you begin working together.

I try to help people understand and prepare for the experience transparently.

Private equity may be great for you, or it may not be. It is helpful to understand that before the transaction, when possible.

Anna Covert [00:06:43]:

What separates a business that scales successfully from one that struggles under pressure?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:06:49]:

I think it primarily comes down to two things.

You need the right team, and you need processes and procedures.

If you have those in place, you have a much better chance of scaling successfully.

When a company moves from a less professionalized environment into a professionalized one, people may have been operating largely through instinct, gut feeling, or a seat-of-the-pants style.

Experience matters, but if you are truly going to scale and professionalize the business, you need systems, processes, and technology.

You need tools that make the business more efficient.

You also need talented people who know how to implement those tools.

Finally, you need the data generated by those systems to tell you whether your strategy is working or whether you need to change course.

The businesses that perform well integrate quickly, build the right team, and then accelerate.

The businesses that struggle often hold onto underperforming people because they are family members, close friends, or long-standing trusted employees.

They may also resist adopting the technology and systems required to support a much larger operation.

Anna Covert [00:08:09]:

That makes a significant difference.

In a smaller company, leaders may make decisions based more on emotion than numbers.

There are many feelings involved when you have personally grown a business.

Are there certain personality types that perform better after a private equity acquisition?

Does the leader’s background in finance, technology, industry, or another discipline make a difference?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:08:58]:

I do not think the specific discipline or industry matters as much.

What I have found is that competitive people who want to win tend to do well in this environment.

Private equity is fast-paced and hands-on. It is not for everyone.

In some cases, you have no idea what tomorrow will look like.

You need a certain level of calmness and confidence, while remaining focused on the end game.

In our terminology, winning means creating value and producing an exit multiple that exceeds what was originally paid for the business.

It also means increasing EBITDA and building a stronger company.

When you build a team of competitive A players, they tend to perform well in private equity.

People who are more laid-back or simply interested in completing a solid day’s work may not be as successful in this environment.

Anna Covert [00:10:12]:

Are those the people who eventually phase themselves out?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:10:20]:

Sometimes they phase themselves out, and sometimes you have to help them.

There may be a gap between what they believe they are contributing and what the business actually requires.

Some people recognize that the environment is not for them and decide to leave. That is perfectly acceptable.

Other people remain in denial.

They do not realize they are failing to meet the expectations, and you eventually have to have a difficult conversation.

Anna Covert [00:10:49]:

Do you ever see so much resistance that someone almost begins sabotaging the business?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:10:56]:

It happens more often than people might imagine.

It can occur with founders whose authority is no longer what it once was.

They may not have the same influence or support from employees because the environment has changed.

They begin to quiet quit.

Sabotage may be too strong a word in some cases, but their engagement declines.

They are not as helpful as they could or should be.

Eventually, it becomes apparent that they are working against the new direction, and the company may need to exit them.

I would say that, more than half the time, this is the reason an incumbent leader is removed.

They become despondent and nonconstructive.

Anna Covert [00:11:48]:

Nonconstructive is a good way to describe it.

When you are evaluating or stepping into a company, what are you looking for to determine whether it is ready for private equity and capable of moving to the next stage?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:12:05]:

There are many factors, but I focus on two in particular.

The first is the team.

How capable is the current team of accomplishing what we plan to do?

When a private equity firm acquires a company, it has conducted due diligence on the business, team, market, and competition.

There is an investment thesis and a reason to believe that, through the partnership, two plus two can equal five.

After that process, I determine whether the team can make the journey with us and reach the outcome we envision.

You have to evaluate that clearly and without emotion.

There may be many genuinely good people in the company.

The question is not whether someone works hard or is a nice person.

The question is whether that person can do what the business needs to reach the desired outcome.

I spend a great deal of time determining whether we have the right athletes to perform at the level we need.

When we do not, we try to make changes quickly.

Those changes should still be handled in a way that allows people to maintain their dignity.

There is no reason to be rude, cruel, or insensitive.

You can have honest conversations and help people position themselves for success somewhere else.

The second factor is infrastructure.

Is the business sophisticated enough to support the planned growth?

If we plan to acquire ten companies, introduce a new product, or build a new plant, does the infrastructure exist to support it?

Is there an enterprise resource planning system?

Is there a professional accounting system?

Is there a customer relationship management platform?

If not, much of my early work involves building the team and infrastructure required to scale.

Anna Covert [00:14:04]:

That is one of the areas I specialize in.

I work with large organizations, including Fortune 500 companies, and conduct technology audits.

Many people may not realize that a large company can have approximately one hundred pieces of software.

Employees may not be using half of them, and different departments may be using duplicate tools.

There can be significant economies of scale from consolidating or removing unnecessary platforms.

Companies can save substantial amounts of money very quickly through licensing reductions and better system integration.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:14:42]:

That is extremely important for another reason as well.

It is not only about creating infrastructure that helps the business perform better and scale.

It also matters when the company exits.

One of the truths about private equity is that the company will eventually be sold.

A potential buyer will want to understand the infrastructure that has been built.

That may influence whether the buyer wants the company and how much the buyer is willing to pay.

If the buyer must spend significant additional time and money building that infrastructure, the business may be less valuable.

Getting the infrastructure completed quickly and correctly can enhance value.

Anna Covert [00:15:29]:

That makes sense.

It also makes me think about the Peter Principle.

In smaller companies, someone may hold a role they are not fully equipped to perform.

They may have been promoted repeatedly because they worked hard and did their best.

Then private equity enters, and it becomes clear that the person may not have the capabilities required to serve as a CFO or another senior executive.

Are those situations usually easy to identify?

Are people relieved to step out of those roles, or is there often resistance?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:16:12]:

It is a mixed experience.

Some people are relieved.

They may say, “Thank goodness. I did not want to admit this role was not right for me. I was going to give it my best effort, but I knew deep down that it was not a fit.”

Other people remain in denial and believe they have the capability to do what is required.

Sometimes you recognize that a person is not ready yet but may be able to grow into the role.

With development, mentorship, and meaningful support over a reasonable period of time, they may succeed.

I have seen that happen.

However, when it is clear that someone cannot attend board meetings, communicate with investors, and establish trust, the company must make a change.

The CFO role is one of the most important positions in a private equity-backed portfolio company.

The CFO may interact with the private equity firm even more than the CEO.

The CFO is responsible for the allocation of capital and serves as the fiduciary link between the company and the investment firm.

If the books cannot be closed correctly, the numbers are inaccurate, or management cannot receive timely visibility into performance, that CFO is highly likely to be replaced.

Anna Covert [00:18:01]:

The world is moving very quickly, especially with artificial intelligence.

Are you seeing changes across private equity?

What are firms investing in, what are they avoiding, and what trends do you see developing?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:18:22]:

I would answer that in two ways.

The first is how businesses and private equity firms are using AI to improve operations.

The second is how AI affects decisions about where to invest.

We are using AI tools for customer service, and many portfolio companies within our firm are doing the same.

I am not ready to say that AI can completely replace a person.

However, when a company has capacity constraints or cannot answer phones during certain hours or weekends, AI assistants can be very capable.

We are seeing more deployment of AI agents, particularly in customer service.

We are also using generative models for analysis.

When I am evaluating a company as an operating partner, I might take the confidential information memorandum, or CIM, and place it into Claude.

I can ask for a summary of the merits of the deal.

Within two or three minutes, I may receive three or four pages of strong analysis.

Anna Covert [00:20:06]:

It is incredible.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:20:07]:

Previously, I would have read seventy pages, taken notes, highlighted important sections, and called several other people to ask what they thought.

Now, within minutes, I can receive a comprehensive analysis that helps guide further review.

It does not replace conducting due diligence or making your own evaluation.

It gives you a significant head start and helps you identify where to focus.

The second trend is that private equity firms are increasingly focusing on residential and commercial services that still require human labor.

In my business, someone still needs to climb into an attic and turn a wrench.

Landscaping requires someone to mow the grass. Painting requires someone to work on the house.

Private equity has been moving into these blue-collar service businesses for several years.

Even with AI, those services still require a human being to perform the work at a high level.

Some investors may be becoming more cautious about software-as-a-service and cloud-based businesses because AI may quickly disrupt or surpass certain offerings.

Meanwhile, more money is moving into professional and residential services that require someone to physically touch, repair, maintain, or improve something.

Anna Covert [00:22:07]:

That makes sense.

I have heard that some companies are attempting to attract investors simply by changing their names to include the term “AI.”

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:22:20]:

There has been a lot of that.

During the dot-com boom in the late 1990s, people did something similar.

The term “vaporware” was used for products that appeared impressive but ultimately disappeared because there was no real substance.

I am not sure what the current term should be for companies dressing up ordinary software businesses as authentic AI companies, but there should be one.

Anna Covert [00:22:56]:

They are trying to ride the wave.

In technology, there used to be more interest in prototyping, discovery, and development.

Now, many people want to move immediately to the finished product.

If the product does not already exist, they may not want to invest in the discovery or research required to create it.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:23:28]:

That is happening across industries.

People are skipping steps and racing to the end.

With AI, someone may claim to have built a product that is really powered by Claude or another provider without understanding whether the company itself has any meaningful substance.

I receive calls and emails every day from new AI companies claiming they can solve a particular problem.

Six months earlier, many of those companies did not exist.

Anna Covert [00:24:04]:

That is frightening from a data perspective.

A free trial may appear harmless, but businesses remain responsible for their data.

If you connect an unfamiliar service to your CRM or ERP and give it access to company or customer information, you may become liable for how that data is handled.

We are seeing increased privacy enforcement and legal activity.

I specialize in privacy protection and data mapping.

One of my clients in New York recently received a claim involving the California Consumer Privacy Act because a website pixel had been misclassified in the cookie preferences.

The company was not even actively conducting business in California.

AI is making it easier for attorneys and other parties to identify alleged violations.

When a private equity firm acquires a large company and later discovers a data or privacy violation, who becomes responsible?

It does not seem like responsibility is always clear in the United States.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:25:29]:

It is not always clear.

There may be state or federal laws that apply, but this is why legal and human resources due diligence are so important.

You may know what company you are buying, but you do not always know who you are buying.

The people and their character can be difficult to evaluate.

During the deal process, everything can feel romantic.

Everyone says the right things. Everyone is excited. The seller may receive a large check, and the deal team wants to complete the transaction.

There is a sense of euphoria around the partnership.

The real moment of truth occurs after closing.

If something was missed during diligence, it can have a major impact on the investment between acquisition and exit.

Cybersecurity is one area where we spend a significant amount of time.

When a private equity investment is publicly announced, bad actors may recognize that the company now has a major investor behind it and decide to attack.

We also conduct background checks on individuals.

People would be shocked by what sometimes appears in those checks.

We have walked away from deals because a person’s background did not demonstrate the value system we required.

People may have changed, and that is admirable, but we do not necessarily want the investment to become the test case for whether previous bad behavior has ended.

In some cases, the background issues involve serious crimes.

AI creates additional risks because bad actors are using these tools for harmful purposes.

That makes comprehensive legal, cybersecurity, and HR diligence even more important.

We spend significant money on those reviews because we want to get them right.

Anna Covert [00:27:57]:

I can understand why that is especially important now, given how quickly everything is changing.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:28:02]:

To answer your question directly, after the acquisition it becomes our problem.

There are different transaction structures.

In a stock deal, the buyer generally assumes the company and its liabilities.

In an asset deal, the buyer may purchase selected assets and receive some protection from past liabilities.

However, an asset deal does not necessarily protect you from people who join the new company and continue behaving poorly.

There is a chapter in my book about a management team that spent company money on lavish trips, expensive dinners, five-star hotels, and first-class flights.

They treated the investor’s capital like funny money.

The company was not performing well.

During diligence, everyone had shaken hands, appeared happy, and seemed like the right partner.

Three months later, we were reviewing the profit and loss statement and wondering what had happened to operating expenses.

It was shocking.

Anna Covert [00:29:10]:

That is unbelievable. They were living beyond their means using someone else’s money.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:29:18]:

Exactly. It was other people’s money.

Anna Covert [00:29:21]:

That reminds me of the controversy involving the book Three Cups of Tea.

The story involved raising money to build schools for women and children in Pakistan.

I remember sending a small donation because the mission sounded beautiful.

Later, questions emerged about how much of the money had actually gone toward building schools and how much had been spent elsewhere.

It is unfortunate when people use a good cause for personal benefit.

How important is value alignment between a private equity investor and the company?

How do you preserve company values while also creating consistency with the investment firm?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:30:28]:

It is extremely important.

If a company does not have a value system, it does not have much of anything.

For me, the company’s value system must align with the private equity firm.

I have worked with this particular firm for more than ten years, and one of the best aspects of the relationship is the team’s character, integrity, and values.

Even during difficult periods or disagreements, people remain respectful.

You are challenged, and you are expected to produce and perform.

However, you can be demanding and maintain high expectations without being a jerk.

Those qualities are not mutually exclusive.

I look for the same value alignment in the people I hire.

Everyone who works with me must demonstrate the values that will define the entire company.

We also evaluate values when acquiring companies.

Can we trust these people?

Is their character similar to ours?

What happens when they face adversity?

Will they remain honest?

I ask open-ended questions and present scenarios to understand how people might respond.

Values also have to be demonstrated consistently.

We once had a general manager who had been asked several times to make an operational change that would create consistency across our businesses.

He disagreed and believed the change would damage the division he was running.

We provided analysis and examples demonstrating why we did not believe that would happen.

We also explained that we could reverse the decision if it did not work.

A member of my management team met with him.

In front of his entire staff, the general manager became defiant, cursed, and behaved unprofessionally.

When I learned about it, I said this was a direct violation of our culture and values.

There was only one appropriate response, which was termination.

The individual was producing results and running a good business.

However, everyone was watching to see whether we truly stood behind our values or would ignore the behavior because the numbers were good.

You have to walk the walk if you talk the talk.

Values must be core operating principles, not merely words on a wall.

Anna Covert [00:33:51]:

I agree.

I recently had another guest discuss how much longer hiring cycles have become.

Companies are afraid of making the wrong executive hire.

Some searches now take nine months or even a year and involve several interviews and assessments.

How long does a private equity acquisition process usually take from initial interest to signing the final documents?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:34:20]:

The rule of thumb is approximately six months from the time you begin evaluating the company until the transaction closes.

There are several steps.

First, a banker or sell-side advisor provides a teaser.

That may be a one-page document with five or six bullet points about the company.

If the opportunity is interesting, you ask to learn more.

You then sign a nondisclosure agreement, agreeing to keep the information confidential.

After signing the NDA, you receive the confidential information memorandum, commonly called a CIM.

The CIM provides extensive information about the business.

You review it and determine whether you want to continue.

If so, you submit an indication of interest, or IOI.

The IOI says that you are interested in meeting management and provides a high-level range of what you might be willing to pay.

You may also describe the proposed structure.

For example, you may request that the sellers retain rollover equity.

You may also propose an earnout, where the seller receives additional proceeds if the company continues performing over a certain period.

If the advisor and management team are receptive, you are invited to a management presentation.

That meeting may take place in person or by video and typically lasts two or three hours.

You ask detailed questions about the company and clarify information from the CIM.

The meeting may also include tours of facilities.

Afterward, a virtual data room is opened.

It contains extensive information, including employee data, locations, financial records, contracts, and other supporting documents.

After reviewing that information, you determine whether to submit a letter of intent, or LOI.

The LOI includes detailed terms describing what you are prepared to pay and how quickly you believe you can complete the deal.

The first phase may involve approximately four months of meetings and evaluation.

Once the LOI is signed, everyone races toward closing.

That is when the buyer begins confirmatory diligence.

A third party may conduct a quality-of-earnings review.

Attorneys conduct legal diligence. Internal and external teams conduct business, HR, technology, and other reviews.

The buyer may have another two months to complete those steps before closing.

The total process is generally approximately six months: three or four months of evaluation followed by two months of intensive confirmatory diligence.

Anna Covert [00:38:10]:

That explanation is very helpful.

Once the deal closes, is there a short resting period, or does execution begin immediately?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:38:19]:

There is no resting period.

Toward the end of diligence, a team is already preparing the integration plan.

They are determining what day one, day thirty, day sixty, and day ninety will look like.

Immediately after closing, the team begins executing.

Bank accounts and banking relationships may change.

Vendor agreements may need to be transferred into the name of the new entity.

If management changes are planned, those processes may begin.

The team has developed a playbook in anticipation of closing.

Once the transaction is complete, the integration team moves into action.

That can be extremely disruptive to the existing management team because many of them have never experienced anything similar.

At the same time, they are still expected to remain focused on the business and continue performing well.

The first three or four months after closing can be very difficult because many legal, financial, and administrative changes must be completed.

Anna Covert [00:39:25]:

Those are always exciting things to work through.

Even setting up an LLC involves a long list of forms and administrative details.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:39:37]:

That is right. It is not insignificant. There are many details.

Anna Covert [00:39:40]:

This has been very interesting.

What is next for you, Ty?

Are you working on another book or doing public speaking?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:39:47]:

My primary focus is my job at Cascade.

I am working to create the best possible outcome for all of Cascade’s stakeholders.

During nights and weekends, I speak with people about the book and how I may be able to help them.

I have accepted several speaking engagements and podcast appearances.

I am trying to let people know that, if they are thinking about selling their company or have already sold it and want to understand life on the other side, this book is a resource.

The main thing remains the main thing, but I enjoy helping people whenever those opportunities arise.

Anna Covert [00:40:36]:

How can people contact you, and where can they find your book?

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:40:40]:

The book is available through Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, and other major booksellers.

People can find me on LinkedIn by searching for Tyrone R. Johnson.

My website is TyroneRJohnson.com, where additional information is also available.

Anna Covert [00:41:08]:

We will include all of those links below this episode.

Thank you so much for joining me, Tyrone.

To everyone listening, if you have not subscribed yet, please do so.

We recently surpassed 200,000 subscribers, and I am overwhelmed with gratitude.

It is because of you and your aloha.

Please continue sharing this content with your friends, family, and colleagues so I can bring more great guests like Ty onto the show to share their wisdom.

I cannot wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

Tyrone R. Johnson [00:41:39]:

I am a big fan. Take care.


I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

If you are enjoying the insights we share, follow us on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review.

Your support helps us reach more digital innovators like you.

Share this episode with your friends and colleagues on social media and help spread the word.

If you work in the solar industry or are curious about where clean energy is headed, follow Anna Covert’s other podcast, The Solar Coaster.

The show explores the real stories, trends, and challenges shaping the solar industry through bold conversations and practical takeaways.

Follow The Solar Coaster so you do not miss an episode.

Thanks for tuning in. See you in the pixels. Aloha.

Comments Off on Episode 125 – Tyrone Johnson

Episode 124 – Chip Higgins

By |2026-08-02T08:27:43+00:00July 31st, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Momentum Advantage: Why Some Businesses Keep Growing While Others Stall

Featuring Chip Higgins, founder of Bizzics and author of The Bizzics Way

Growth rarely stops all at once.

A business may continue generating revenue, serving customers, and paying its expenses while quietly losing the energy that once drove it forward. Sales flatten. Margins begin to narrow. Leaders become increasingly cautious, and the company starts protecting what it has instead of building what comes next.

That is the danger of a business plateau.

In Episode 124 of The Covert Code Podcast, Anna Covert welcomes Chip Higgins back to discuss The Momentum Advantage: Why Some Businesses Keep Growing While Others Stall.

Chip is the founder of Bizzics, a business coach, speaker, and author of The Bizzics Way: Powering Your Small Business to Maximum Momentum.

The conversation explores how entrepreneurs can regain momentum, use artificial intelligence responsibly, reconnect with customers, strengthen employees, protect margins, and make better decisions in a constantly changing environment.

Business Momentum Requires More Than Movement

A company can remain busy without moving forward.

Employees may be working long hours. Marketing campaigns may still be running. Customers may continue placing orders. Yet none of those activities automatically indicate that the business is gaining momentum.

Momentum requires both movement and direction.

Chip uses principles from physics to help business owners understand this distinction. A company needs energy, velocity, direction, and enough force to overcome the friction working against it.

The same idea forms the foundation of The Bizzics Way, which translates principles such as force, energy, friction, and momentum into practical guidance for small-business owners.

A company moving rapidly in the wrong direction is not succeeding. A company with a clear destination but no energy is not progressing either.

Sustainable growth requires alignment between where the company is going, how quickly it is moving, and whether its people and resources are working toward the same outcome.

Making Business Coaching More Accessible

One of Chip’s central concerns when creating Bizzics was the accessibility of experienced business guidance.

Traditional coaching can be expensive for smaller businesses. It can also be difficult for entrepreneurs to fit recurring coaching sessions into unpredictable schedules.

To address that challenge, Chip introduced Bizzics on Demand, an AI-supported business companion built around his book, writing, tools, and coaching philosophy.

The platform allows an entrepreneur to begin with a specific problem and work through questions such as:

  • What are you trying to accomplish?
  • Why is this outcome important?
  • What have you already attempted?
  • What options are you considering?
  • What is the first realistic action you can take?

Instead of attempting to solve every problem at once, the process helps the business owner establish a foothold and begin moving forward.

The objective is not to replace experienced human coaches. It is to make informed guidance more accessible when the entrepreneur needs it.

AI Is Changing How Entrepreneurs Ask for Help

AI gives people the freedom to ask the same question repeatedly, rephrase it, request clarification, and explore different options without feeling embarrassed.

That can be especially valuable for small-business owners who may not have a board, a large leadership team, or a group of experienced advisors readily available.

However, Chip emphasizes that the quality of the response depends heavily on the quality of the question.

“What should I do to grow?” is too broad to produce a meaningful strategy.

A more useful question might be:

  • Why has revenue from my highest-margin service declined?
  • Which expenses have increased faster than revenue?
  • Why are qualified employees leaving after six months?
  • Which customer segment is most profitable?
  • Which service creates the greatest operational strain?

Learning to ask better questions forces business owners to define what they are actually trying to solve.

AI can then provide rapid analysis, ideas, and structure. But the entrepreneur still needs the context, judgment, and experience required to evaluate the response.

AI Should Strengthen People, Not Replace Them

One of the most important themes in the conversation is that artificial intelligence should support human talent rather than automatically replace it.

AI can process information rapidly. It can analyze numbers, generate possibilities, organize research, and identify patterns that might otherwise take hours to uncover.

What it cannot fully understand is the daily context surrounding a company.

It does not automatically know the history of a customer relationship, the strengths of an employee, the emotional consequences of a decision, or the values the business is attempting to protect.

The stronger model combines human knowledge with artificial intelligence.

An employee who understands the customer, recognizes the problem, and knows which questions to ask can use AI to become more capable and efficient.

This is similar to the arrival of online banking. Digital banking did not completely eliminate the desire for human assistance. Customers wanted the convenience of technology and access to experienced people when the situation required it.

Hiring and Managing People Remain Major Growth Challenges

Chip initially expected users of Bizzics on Demand to focus primarily on strategy and competition.

Instead, many questions have focused on people:

  • How do I find strong employees?
  • How do I attract the right people?
  • How do I lead them effectively?
  • How do I create an environment where they want to stay?

Technical skill alone does not determine whether someone will strengthen a company.

Business owners are increasingly concerned about values, attitude, energy, adaptability, and whether a new employee will positively influence the existing team.

Chip strongly disagrees with the belief that employees should be treated as interchangeable or expendable.

Processes and systems are important, but a business should not be structured around hiring the lowest-cost person capable of following a manual.

Leaders rarely know the full potential of the people they hire.

When an employee is aligned with the company’s values, interested in its mission, and motivated to improve, the leader should invest in that person.

Training, encouragement, patience, and responsibility can help employees grow into capabilities that were not immediately visible when they were hired.

Agility Is the Foundation of Continued Momentum

Businesses once spoke frequently about making a dramatic pivot.

During the pandemic, restaurants added pickup services, retailers expanded e-commerce, and companies changed their operating models almost overnight.

Today, the more common requirement is not one major pivot. It is continuous adjustment.

Technology, customer behavior, regulations, competitors, and communication platforms are changing too quickly for a static business plan to remain reliable indefinitely.

Chip explains that entrepreneurs need a process for gently steering toward emerging opportunities.

Even rockets are continually making small course corrections. Being temporarily off course does not mean the mission has failed. It means the guidance system must remain active.

The same principle applies to business.

A leader should know the destination but remain willing to adjust the route.

The Risk of Becoming Too Comfortable

Entrepreneurs take enormous risks when starting a company.

They invest savings, time, energy, reputation, and sometimes home equity into creating something that may not succeed.

Once the company becomes stable, their appetite for risk often declines.

The business owner who was once willing to experiment may begin protecting the existing operation at all costs.

That caution is understandable, but it can become dangerous when the world is changing rapidly around the company.

Maintaining momentum does not require risking the entire business again.

It requires making controlled investments, testing ideas at a manageable scale, learning from the results, and adjusting accordingly.

A failed experiment does not necessarily represent wasted effort. It may reveal that the opportunity was only a few degrees away from the initial approach.

Use Your Values as a Decision-Making Compass

When entrepreneurs reach a fork in the road, they often compare opportunities primarily by cost and expected return.

Chip recommends beginning with a broader evaluation.

First, determine whether you have an objective understanding of the environment. Social media feeds, headlines, friends, and family can all create a distorted view of the market.

Look for credible industry data, examine what competitors are doing, and study what happened to businesses that made similar choices.

Next, determine whether the opportunity aligns with your values and intentions.

Ask:

  • Does this reflect who we are?
  • Does it support the purpose of the company?
  • Does it serve the people we originally wanted to help?
  • Do we understand the partner or vendor involved?
  • Does this opportunity feel meaningful, or is it merely a shiny object?

The financial analysis still matters, but it should occur after the opportunity has passed the alignment test.

Vet Every Vendor and Technology Partner

The growing availability of AI, data tools, lead-generation services, and marketing platforms creates enormous opportunity. It also creates risk.

A company may promise to identify website visitors, collect contact information, automate outbound calls, or deliver large numbers of leads.

Before adopting those tools, business owners must understand how the data is collected, whether consent has been obtained, and whether the technology complies with applicable privacy and communication laws.

Anna explains that companies can face serious consequences when marketing pixels, cookies, voice agents, or lead-generation tools are deployed without proper review.

The larger business lesson is simple: A vendor’s promise does not transfer the risk away from the business purchasing the service.

Business owners must thoroughly vet the people and platforms they allow into their operations.

A Plateau Can Be an Early Warning of Decline

From Chip’s experience in banking, several years of flat revenue were rarely interpreted as a sign of stability.

They were often viewed as an early prediction of decline.

A company on a plateau may be working intensely to preserve its top-line revenue. To retain customers, it begins cutting prices, granting concessions, and accepting lower-margin business.

Revenue appears stable, but profitability begins deteriorating underneath it.

The company eventually responds with reactionary expense reductions.

It cuts employees, marketing, training, innovation, and customer programs. Those cuts remove the very capabilities required to create future growth.

The plateau then becomes a downward spiral.

Return to Your Vision, Values, and Mission

When a company loses momentum, Chip recommends returning to the foundation.

Revisit the original vision, values, and mission.

Ask why the company was started and what problem it was created to solve.

Then examine what has changed:

  • Has the competitive environment changed?
  • Have customer expectations changed?
  • Have new products or technologies emerged?
  • Are former strengths still relevant?
  • Are current services aligned with the core mission?
  • Has the company added offerings it is not equipped to deliver profitably?

A traditional SWOT analysis and competitor review can help reveal where the company has drifted and where a new opportunity may exist.

Your Customers May Know Where Your Growth Is Hiding

Chip recommends conducting meaningful conversations with key customers rather than relying exclusively on ratings and short surveys.

A five-star review confirms satisfaction, but it does not necessarily reveal what the customer needs next.

Invite a small group of strong customers to lunch or conduct individual conversations. Explain that the business is evaluating its future and ask for direct feedback.

Questions might include:

  • What could we do differently?
  • What are you purchasing elsewhere that we could provide?
  • What is becoming more difficult in your business?
  • What would make working with us easier?
  • What is one problem you wish someone would solve?

Customers who already trust the company are often honored to be asked.

They may identify an unmet need, service opportunity, operational weakness, or emerging competitor that the company cannot see from inside its own walls.

Analyze the Business Behind the Revenue

AI can also help owners examine financial information more deeply.

Accounting software records what happened. AI-supported analysis may help the owner ask why it happened.

Business owners can examine:

  • Which services generate the strongest margins
  • Which products require disproportionate support
  • Which customer segments are most profitable
  • Which expenses are growing faster than revenue
  • Which offerings have drifted away from the company’s core expertise
  • Where discounts and concessions are reducing profitability

Growth does not always require adding more.

Sometimes momentum is restored by simplifying the business, removing unprofitable offerings, and concentrating resources on the areas where the company delivers the greatest value.

Storytelling Can Restore Energy

Chip’s most immediate recommendation for a business owner seeking momentum is to begin telling the company’s story again.

Revisit what the business has accomplished, the people it has helped, the problems it has solved, and the reason it exists.

That story can energize the owner, employees, customers, and community.

It can also create unexpected conversations. Someone may hear the story and suggest a partnership, service, customer group, or opportunity the owner had not considered.

This is not about inventing an exaggerated narrative.

It is about taking pride in the real work the company has done and communicating that work with clarity and enthusiasm.

The Momentum Advantage

Businesses that continue growing are not always the companies with the largest budgets, newest technology, or most aggressive expansion plans.

They are often the companies that remain alert.

They listen to customers, invest in people, protect margins, test ideas, review their assumptions, and adjust course before a plateau becomes a decline.

AI can help businesses analyze information and move faster, but technology alone does not create momentum.

Momentum is created when people use better information to make decisions that align with the company’s purpose.

That requires energy, direction, agility, and a willingness to keep moving.

Watch the Full Conversation

Watch Episode 124 of The Covert Code Podcast to hear Anna Covert and Chip Higgins discuss AI-supported coaching, employee development, business plateaus, customer relationships, financial analysis, strategic agility, and the practical steps entrepreneurs can take to regain momentum.

Learn more about Chip at ChipHiggins.com.

Explore business coaching and resources at Bizzics.

Learn about the AI-powered coaching companion discussed in the episode at Bizzics on Demand.

Discover more interviews and business insights from The Covert Code Podcast.

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The Momentum Advantage: Why Some Businesses Keep Growing While Others Stall

The Covert Code Podcast, Episode 124

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Chip Higgins, Founder of Bizzics and Author of The Bizzics Way


Anna Covert [00:00:04]:

Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I am coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

This week on The Covert Code, the topic is The Momentum Advantage: Why Some Businesses Keep Growing While Others Simply Stall.

My very special guest, who I am glad to welcome back for round two, is Chip Higgins, founder of Bizzics. He is a business coach, speaker, and author of The Bizzics Way.

Since his last appearance, he launched Bizzics on Demand, an AI-powered companion that gives entrepreneurs 24/7 access to the principles and strategies in his book.

Today, we are going to talk about practical ways to keep momentum rolling, how to overcome plateaus, and how to keep a business moving forward.

Chip, let us get the ball rolling. Pun intended.

Tell me about the vision behind the AI, how it is going, and what kind of feedback you are receiving.

Chip Higgins [00:01:06]:

First of all, thank you for having me on. I loved being on the show the first time. We had the best conversation, and I am thrilled to be here again.

Part of my value proposition, and one of the things I worried about when starting Bizzics, was the accessibility of coaching.

I wanted small-business owners to be able to find good resources and, more importantly, engage with intelligence and experience that could help them move forward.

I have done several things to make that more accessible. Writing the book was part of it.

It can still be a steep financial hill for many small-business owners to afford a coach. It can also be awkward to schedule coaching because of the time demands on a small-business owner.

They may wonder when they will talk to the coach, what they will discuss, and how frequently they should meet.

I have been in business for a long time, and I have followed AI closely. I kept hearing about people using AI for data and financially driven models.

I came across a company in Austin, Texas, that had developed a small language model for authors.

I began exploring it and thought it was a unique opportunity to make my book available for people to interact with at any time, 24/7, with unlimited use.

It creates a conversation people can have at any time of day.

It is based on my book, everything I have written, and the mindset I use when coaching.

The mindset I tried to train into the agent is focused on questions such as:

  • What are you working on?
  • Why is it important to you?
  • How will it make a difference?
  • What have you already tried?
  • What are you considering?
  • Do you need ideas?
  • Where do you want to begin?

The goal is to help people gain a foothold and start moving forward without feeling like they have to change the entire world overnight.

There are also resources that come after that, including tools, templates, guidance for leading meetings, running a company book club, developing SMART goals, and other practical support.

It is compact. People know where to find it and how to interact with it.

The conversation feels very human, and I think that is because it is based on my book and my voice.

It genuinely feels like talking to me.

I think people are reading less and less, and this gives them a way to experience the book wherever they want to begin.

There are many principles in the book, but someone does not necessarily need to read the entire book before having a useful session with the agent.

Anna Covert [00:04:41]:

That is really interesting.

We already know from websites that people are skimming more than ever.

If there is too much copy or something looks too complicated, people may not engage at all.

You want to captivate them, stop the scroll, and then they may read more.

I know there are analytics involved with these agents. Are you seeing any trends that surprised you?

What are business owners asking your AI that may be different from what they asked you in person?

Chip Higgins [00:04:59]:

The one thing that stands out is hiring and managing people.

I thought the questions would be more focused on strategy and where companies fit in the competitive landscape.

There has been some of that, but most of the discussion has focused on questions such as:

  • How do I find good people?
  • How do I attract them to the company?
  • How do I lead them effectively?
  • How do I create an environment where they want to stay?

Maybe that is a function of the advice already available.

Many people who work with business owners are fractional CFOs or financial professionals. They bring useful experience.

However, fewer people are easily identifiable as having experience in HR, workplace quality, and the work environment.

Hiring and managing people has been a very hot topic.

Anna Covert [00:06:03]:

That is interesting.

I have had other guests discuss the same thing, and I think there is a lot of fear right now.

Five or six years ago, people were often hired and fired as part of a regular cycle.

Now, with layoffs and increased uncertainty, people in positions of authority are more concerned about bringing the wrong energy into their companies.

It is no longer only about technical skill. It is about whether the person is truly right for the company.

Chip Higgins [00:06:38]:

That is absolutely showing up.

Anna Covert [00:06:40]:

Have you seen other major changes since the last time we spoke?

Things are happening so quickly.

One thing I appreciate about your book is that many of the principles are timeless because they are grounded in science.

My book focuses on digital advertising. The core principles remain the same, but many of the exact examples change as new platforms and choices emerge.

Have you noticed anything different in business in general since our last conversation?

Chip Higgins [00:07:27]:

I think the door has opened much more widely for AI applications in general.

When I launched the agent about a year ago, it was difficult to get people to engage with it.

There are aspects of AI that can be dangerous or harmful if they are left unmanaged, and those concerns should be acknowledged.

Overall, though, I see AI as a huge benefit.

I was surprised by how reluctant people were at first.

My wife reminded me that we were among the last people in our neighborhood to get cell phones, so I understand being cautious about an adoption curve.

Now, I see much more intentional use of AI tools to support businesses.

Bizzics on Demand is one version of that. It is a conversational strategy resource and a C-level voice that a business owner may need.

I have also seen people use AI to gain financial insights into their businesses.

QuickBooks gives you numbers, but it is not necessarily a reasoning source. It does not automatically match up the numbers and tell you the story of what is happening in your business.

I have seen more business owners use AI to help uncover that story.

I have also seen more use of AI in marketing.

People are becoming more trusting of using a platform to help them develop a message for their target audience when they do not know what to say.

That may sound threatening to marketers, but in another sense, it is opening conversations that many businesses ignored before.

People are becoming more confident about using AI for specific purposes.

Not everything in AI is simply ChatGPT. People are harnessing intelligence for specialized reasons.

Businesses need to understand where AI can create greater effectiveness or efficiency while adding to the human equation.

I do not want to replace humanity with AI.

Even though I have the agent, I still hold office hours every week because I do not want to lose touch with people.

I am grateful that AI gives people a level of accessibility I could never have provided without it.

Anna Covert [00:10:11]:

I think it is a tool that creates more opportunity.

It also helps people feel less afraid.

I can ask AI the same question in several ways, several times, without feeling embarrassed.

If I were talking directly to a person, I might feel uncomfortable if I did not understand something immediately.

That creates an opportunity.

Chip Higgins [00:10:45]:

Something you said made me think about the importance of questions.

People are learning that asking questions is an art, and it is a very powerful art form.

Some early users of Bizzics on Demand asked questions such as, “What do I need to do to grow?”

That is too broad.

Prompting intelligence requires a person to understand what they are looking for and what they are trying to solve.

That takes some energy.

However, the rapid response and completeness of the answer can make it worthwhile to spend ten minutes defining the real problem.

A business owner may know they want to grow, but they should ask what part of growth needs an answer right now.

Is it hiring? Finding the market? Improving operations? Increasing margins?

I think AI will ultimately cause people to develop a deeper understanding of what they need to know about their businesses.

They may have been operating on autopilot for a long time.

We should be able to stop and ask hard questions of ourselves.

Used in the right context, especially for small-business owners, the availability of this resource is incredible.

Anna Covert [00:12:35]:

I do not think this is bad for marketers.

I think it creates more parity.

People will not be able to compare businesses only by budget because one company could afford something another company could not.

The actual product and service will need to shine.

That does not mean there will not be agencies.

Businesses still need help creating a clear brand.

If they ask different AI tools to solve every problem and every result sounds different, they may lose a clear vision of who they are.

AI is an equalizer, but businesses still need consistency and strategy.

Chip Higgins [00:13:18]:

I agree.

The position you are taking is one of the most evolved applications I have seen.

A single-person business may eventually have access to an informed C-suite made up of specialized tools with tremendous intelligence.

Imagine having a seasoned board as a solopreneur.

That is essentially where we are heading.

Anna Covert [00:13:58]:

I have been experimenting with several tools.

I use Claude on my desktop, and I train it almost like an employee.

I explain why I created a document a certain way, who the audience is, and what the strategy is.

I keep it open all day.

Sometimes I screen share with clients while using it, and we solve a problem together in real time.

People are mesmerized by what we can do with AI.

I have also been experimenting with image-to-video tools.

You can take a still image and animate it in ways that look remarkably close to the original.

Chip Higgins [00:14:49]:

I would love to see that.

It has been a great learning frontier for me, and I have enjoyed it.

Anna Covert [00:14:57]:

What are some of the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs are making today that quietly slow their growth?

Chip Higgins [00:15:07]:

We have been discussing this indirectly.

Momentum requires a certain level of agility.

If you think about velocity in the momentum equation, you have direction, distance, and speed.

Those are the elements required for a vector.

Even rockets are off course much of the time.

They know where they are going, and they know how quickly they want to get there, but they constantly make small corrections.

Entrepreneurs need to be more agile and aware than ever.

AI should help increase awareness of what is happening.

We became accustomed to the idea of a major pivot during COVID. Businesses pivoted to pickup service, online sales, or other major changes.

What may be holding people back today is not the failure to make one dramatic pivot.

It is the failure to make gentle, continuous adjustments toward emerging opportunities.

These technologies are not completely predictable, but if a business remains on the sidelines and does not use them at all, it will be left behind.

Other companies may have several intelligent, well-trained agents supporting their work.

Entrepreneurs often take a huge initial risk when starting a company. Once they figure things out and become successful, their desire to take additional risks can diminish.

They begin to say, “I am not sure I want to take that risk. I will wait and see.”

We need to refresh the entrepreneurial spirit.

Businesses should try things at a level that will not destroy the company but will reveal whether a certain direction is worth pursuing.

The belief that a business plan worked once and can simply be executed forever will eventually cost someone the business.

That is not the world we live in.

Everything is fluid.

Business owners must remain flexible, agile, educated, and willing to use resources that help them improve.

The hidden danger is that a company may feel like it is doing fine while the world is changing quickly around it.

Every business needs a mechanism for rising to those changes and navigating toward the right destination.

Anna Covert [00:17:47]:

That is true.

We are part of a global economy, and AI is one more accelerating force.

When one AI gains access to an idea, that information spreads quickly.

Growth is also painful.

When children grow, they experience growing pains. Their knees hurt, their bones hurt, and suddenly their clothes do not fit.

We forget that growth continues to be uncomfortable as adults and business owners.

We are never truly finished.

AI can expose the areas where it is time to grow again.

Chip Higgins [00:18:34]:

It is important to consider the relative size of the risk.

When people first start a business, they make a huge leap.

They become emotionally invested. They may use savings, home equity, or other resources.

The risks required to maintain momentum are rarely of the same magnitude as the original startup risk.

You cannot compare every new experiment to starting over.

There will be some pain. You will make some bets that turn out to be wrong.

You learn from them.

Perhaps you were not exactly right, but a few degrees to the left would have worked.

Keep moving.

Entrepreneurs need to recapture that risk profile as a day-to-day discipline in a dynamic world.

Anna Covert [00:19:42]:

How do you personally navigate that?

Suppose I reach a fork in the road and see several possible opportunities.

Two of them may appear financially equal.

How do you choose the right direction?

Chip Higgins [00:20:04]:

I do not know anyone who has been right one hundred percent of the time.

If someone claims to be, that should probably make you cautious.

The first step is making sure you have a broad perspective at the fork in the road.

We all receive different information through social media, news feeds, and other sources.

You must ask whether you have objectively evaluated the environment in which you are making the decision.

Have you been influenced only by family members who tell you that you are doing great?

Have you tested yourself in the market and confronted the hard truths about where you stand?

You can become blinded without a broad perspective.

One thing I do with clients is provide a full, current industry report.

It may be thirty-five or forty pages long and include links to strong industry resources.

It is data-driven and not sales-oriented.

Get the broad perspective first.

The next step is determining how the choices align with your value system and intentions.

There are many shiny objects, and it can appear that everyone is doing something.

You are not everyone.

You must ask:

  • Is this right for me?
  • Does this align with the person I am?
  • Does this align with the values of my company?
  • Does it support the person or group I originally wanted to help?

You should work through those questions before you reach the economics of cost and expected return.

If someone tells you that spending five hundred dollars per month will produce a certain number of leads, do not evaluate only the price and promise.

Ask whether they understand your values, your market, and the people you are trying to reach.

There must be integrity in those partnerships.

You will not be right all the time, but you will be wrong more often than necessary if you are not truthful about who you are and what you want your company to become.

We often think we understand what is happening in the world when we are only seeing headlines and information designed to capture attention.

Step back and study the situation.

Understand the fork in the road, study what others have done, and look at what happened to the people who tried similar approaches.

You do not always need to be the first person on the bleeding edge.

Anna Covert [00:23:29]:

For me, I have learned to ask which opportunity I feel most passionate about.

When two choices appear equal, which one creates more energy?

That usually aligns with values and mission.

If an opportunity feels exciting and meaningful, you may have the energy required to keep pushing forward.

If it does not feel right, you may not be able to move it very far.

Chip Higgins [00:24:03]:

Checking in with yourself is important.

Sometimes we do not want to ask ourselves what we are actually doing. We want someone else to tell us what to do.

With so many choices available, people may believe they do not have the skill to determine what they want.

However, if you have built a business to that point, you should know your values and what you are trying to accomplish in the world.

Anna Covert [00:24:26]:

Another issue happening now involves privacy and compliance.

Several of our clients have received legal letters related to privacy laws.

One client in New York received an allegation involving the California Consumer Privacy Act because a pixel was allegedly firing before consent was recorded.

There was a misclassification, and we corrected it.

Business owners need to slow down and understand who they are working with.

A company may promise to place a pixel on a website and identify every visitor’s phone number and email address.

That may sound appealing until the business faces a significant per-violation penalty.

There are people actively looking for those violations.

Businesses need to be extremely careful when a promise sounds too good to be true.

Chip Higgins [00:25:37]:

I had a similar experience with someone who wanted to help Bizzics with content marketing.

We discussed creating courses and other materials.

After three conversations, the person disappeared.

I kept waiting for the proposal and received no response.

Eventually, I realized the entire thing may have been made up and the person may not have known what they were doing.

We live in a world with a great deal of fraud.

You have to vet every person thoroughly.

Anna Covert [00:26:24]:

If someone feels like their business has hit a plateau, what step can they take today to begin moving again?

Chip Higgins [00:26:33]:

In banking, we used to say that flat revenue over two or three years was essentially predicting decline.

It was often the first indicator that someone had lost their way.

Sometimes a plateau involves pride in what someone has built and resistance to changing it.

Sometimes it involves the energy required to get back onto a growth trajectory.

What I tell people is to return to the beginning.

Dust off the vision, values, and mission.

Ask why you started the business in the first place and what you were trying to accomplish.

Then examine what is different today.

  • What has changed in the competitive environment?
  • What has changed in product availability?
  • What has changed in specifications and capabilities?
  • What has changed in customer expectations?

Conduct a SWOT analysis and a competitor analysis.

Then identify a space where the company can create lift.

You may already have a critical mass of customers who like you, but perhaps you have not made small investments to explore the next frontier.

If you are on a plateau and have not conducted meaningful 360-degree conversations with key customers, that is one of the best places to begin.

There should be a constant cycle of contacting customers and asking what they think.

Ask where they are buying other things, what would be valuable, and what you could change that would help them today.

Many customers are honored to be asked.

I am a major supporter of customer panels.

Invite six to ten customers into your office, give them an excellent lunch, and tell them the truth.

Explain that the business feels flat and that you remain passionate about serving them.

Ask what you could do differently.

You may be surprised by what you learn.

Customers may be buying things elsewhere that you do not even realize they need.

There is very little downside.

They already like you and want to do business with you.

Technology may not always serve us well because we rely too much on star ratings and short surveys.

Five stars confirm that a customer is satisfied, but they do not necessarily tell you anything useful.

It is worth the cost of a great lunch to hear ten trusted customers explain what you are missing.

We cannot see everything from inside the company.

Anna Covert [00:29:52]:

That also connects to another tip.

Business owners can take their QuickBooks data and financial statements and ask AI some difficult questions.

There may be things they are not seeing.

Restaurants often simplify menus after financial challenges because a smaller menu can be more efficient.

California Pizza Kitchen, for example, had a much larger menu before restructuring and later reduced it.

I have also added products and services and later realized they were not aligned with why we started the business.

Customers may want something, but that does not mean we are the best company to provide it.

It may require another team member or additional support.

Business owners should examine whether each offering is truly good for the company and understand what it costs to deliver.

Chip Higgins [00:30:41]:

Yes. Please understand those costs.

If you are on a plateau, there is a strong chance your margins are being damaged.

You may be trying so hard to preserve top-line revenue that you begin cutting prices and making concessions.

You are trying to hold on.

Instead, you should be asking what value-added component could restore margin.

What could you offer that competitors do not provide?

What is complementary to what you already deliver?

What would be easier for the customer to purchase from you than to buy somewhere else?

Top-line revenue and margin are connected when a business is on a plateau.

Once margins begin shrinking, everything is at risk.

If revenue is also flat, the business eventually becomes forced into reactionary expense reductions.

It begins cutting employees and programs that keep the company close to customers.

That is where the downward spiral begins.

Businesses must stay fresh with customers.

My book focuses on momentum, including angular momentum.

A tornado has linear momentum because it moves across the land, but it also has tremendous energy spinning inside the system.

Businesses need that kind of constant movement with customers and reinvestment in the company.

Online reviews are useful, but five stars only tell you that someone is satisfied.

What information are you actually learning from the people buying your product?

Spend the time and money to stay close to them and understand their experience.

Anna Covert [00:33:34]:

That is more important than ever because people are becoming disconnected.

There is no replacement for spending time with people, whether in groups or one-on-one.

I used to have more local clients and more in-person meetings.

Now, Zoom makes remote work easier, but there is still no replacement for taking a client to lunch or having a drink together.

Chip Higgins [00:34:03]:

Absolutely.

Anna Covert [00:34:04]:

The more people like you, the more they want to do business with you.

That is simple math.

Chip Higgins [00:34:13]:

The wisdom is flowing out of you.

Anna Covert [00:34:16]:

What is one piece of widely accepted business advice that you completely disagree with?

Chip Higgins [00:34:48]:

I strongly disagree with the idea that people are expendable.

One of the best-selling small-business books of all time is The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber.

The intention of the book was to help people think about making their businesses franchise-ready.

That means creating systems and processes that allow the business to operate without the owner.

However, there is also an idea embedded in that philosophy of hiring to the lowest common denominator and creating a manual that allows almost anyone to perform the work.

I do not view employment that way.

The capacity and talent of people are unknown to us.

We do not know what someone may be able to accomplish.

If leaders are patient, show people the way, inspire them, and motivate them within the context of the business, they may be amazed by what those people grow into.

Much of the conventional wisdom says that people do not want to work, that companies should cut quickly, and that an employee should be replaced as soon as a problem appears.

I disagree.

Leaders must be diligent about values alignment when hiring.

If someone is motivated by life, aligned with the company’s values, and interested in the change the business is trying to create, the company should invest in that person.

That is part of the mass in the momentum equation: making people stronger.

A business leader should value the opportunity to pour into people and help them improve.

Anna Covert [00:37:10]:

That is not where I expected you to go.

I thought you might discuss AI because some businesses believe AI will be cheaper than employees.

However, business owners should be prepared for the cost of AI to change.

When social media first became popular, it appeared to be free.

Today, organic posts often receive very little visibility unless a business pays to distribute them.

AI companies are also investing heavily and may eventually charge for individual tasks, lines of code, and higher levels of usage.

A company should be careful about changing its entire workforce strategy based on today’s pricing model.

Chip Higgins [00:38:01]:

These may be the golden days of AI pricing.

I also want to comment on AI replacing people.

AI offers rapid computing power and incredible intelligence.

However, it cannot fully understand the context of what happens in a business every day.

The beauty of people is that they have knowledge and the capacity to ask the right questions.

AI can then become a powerful tool in the background.

In banking during the late 1990s, many people believed online banking would eliminate the need for branches.

The reality was that customers wanted both.

That is likely what will happen with AI.

Businesses need people who are committed to the cause, understand the problem, stay close to customers, and are trying to innovate.

Connect those people with AI tools and allow them to bring stronger solutions forward.

If a company believes AI will become its entire workforce, I do not think that will work.

AI cannot fully understand the necessary context.

Anna Covert [00:39:16]:

There are also new risks involving AI voice agents.

Businesses may not be allowed to conduct AI-powered outbound calls without explicit customer consent, and there can be significant penalties.

Some call centers are reducing staff because they believe AI can take over, but they need to understand the legal and compliance risks.

Businesses should proceed carefully.

I use AI for many purposes, especially research.

It can be faster than searching through Google when I need to find specific information.

It is also useful for organizing data and completing structured work from an existing template.

It should be treated like another tool, similar to a calculator.

Chip Higgins [00:40:26]:

I am old enough to remember slide rules.

Anna Covert [00:40:42]:

What is one easy thing someone can do today to create more momentum in their business?

Chip Higgins [00:40:58]:

I am Irish by heritage, so I am a strong believer in storytelling.

When you revisit the vision, mission, and values of the company and feel that spark of energy, begin telling your story again.

It can be energizing to remember what you have accomplished and how many people you have helped.

Reconnect with the intention behind the change you are trying to create in the world.

Storytelling is a skill we will need even more in the future.

People need to be able to tell stories from their own experiences, infused with their own spirit.

Tell the story to employees, customers, and the larger community that may have lost track of what the business does.

Be proud of it.

You never know who may hear the story and say, “That is great. Have you tried this?”

New ideas may emerge simply because you told the story.

Have fun celebrating what you have already accomplished.

Tell the story to as many people as possible, and then take it directly to your customers.

Anna Covert [00:42:30]:

In the spirit of the Irish, you can go to the bar and tell your story.

Chip Higgins [00:42:33]:

That is where I practiced.

Stick to the facts, though. Do not start embellishing.

Anna Covert [00:42:46]:

What is next for you? What are you most excited about for 2026?

Chip Higgins [00:42:50]:

I am very excited about a partnership I am building with a regional bank.

It has required a great deal of work over a long period of time.

We are on the verge of a large bank including my book as part of an experience for its small-business clients.

The idea of small-business owners across eight or nine states gaining access to the book and its resources is an unreal opportunity.

I am extremely excited about it.

Anna Covert [00:43:27]:

I have chills thinking about that.

Chip Higgins [00:43:30]:

I think it is a good book, personally. I am proud of it.

Anna Covert [00:43:36]:

That is exciting, and we will be rooting for you.

How can people connect with you?

Chip Higgins [00:43:42]:

I am on LinkedIn, and people will see the book cover there.

My business website is Bizzics.com.

I also have a personal website at ChipHiggins.com.

The book is available through both places.

I love speaking about the book.

If someone is looking for a speaker for small-business owners, they can visit ChipHiggins.com and send me a message.

Those are the three best ways to connect: Bizzics.com, ChipHiggins.com, and LinkedIn.

I would love to engage with as many small-business owners as possible.

Anna Covert [00:44:17]:

Chip is also a Forbes Books author, so you can purchase his book through Barnes & Noble and many of the same places where you can find my book.

We will include all of the links.

If you have not watched our first episode together, please do.

Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Chip Higgins [00:44:34]:

Thank you again.

I think this conversation was even better than the first one, which I loved.

Thank you for having me back. I really enjoyed it.

Anna Covert [00:44:41]:

Me too.

To all of my listeners, we recently celebrated 200,000 subscribers, and I am overwhelmed with gratitude.

It is because of you and your aloha.

Thank you for sharing this content.

If you have not yet subscribed, please do so, so I can continue bringing more great guests like Chip onto the show.

To celebrate this milestone, we will be inviting more of my favorite guests back for additional conversations.

I hope you enjoyed this episode and the future conversations to come.

I cannot wait to see you in the pixels next week. Aloha.


I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

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Share this episode with your friends and colleagues on social media and help spread the word.

If you work in the solar industry or are curious about where clean energy is headed, follow Anna Covert’s other podcast, The Solar Coaster.

The show explores the real stories, trends, and challenges shaping the solar industry through bold conversations and powerful takeaways.

Follow The Solar Coaster so you do not miss an episode.

Thanks for tuning in. See you in the pixels. Aloha.

Comments Off on Episode 124 – Chip Higgins

Episode 123 – Per Sjöfors

By |2026-08-02T09:04:16+00:00July 23rd, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Why Pricing Is Your Most Powerful Growth Strategy

Featuring Per Sjöfors, The Price Whisperer, on The Covert Code Podcast

Most businesses focus their growth efforts on generating more leads, increasing sales volume, improving marketing, or reducing operating costs.

However, they frequently overlook one of the fastest and most powerful ways to improve profitability: pricing.

In Episode 123 of The Covert Code Podcast, Anna Covert speaks with pricing expert Per Sjöfors about behavioral economics, pricing psychology, differentiation, discounting, customer expectations, and the strategies businesses can use to increase both revenue and profitability.

Meet Per Sjöfors, The Price Whisperer

Per Sjöfors is the founder of Sjöfors & Partners and the author of The Price Whisperer: A Holistic Approach to Pricing Power.

Before becoming a pricing consultant, Sjöfors served in several CEO roles in Europe and the United States. During that time, he experimented with different pricing strategies.

Some experiments produced dramatic revenue increases. Others failed completely.

The inconsistency led him to a larger question: Why did certain pricing changes work while others did not?

Sjöfors concluded that traditional pricing models were often too theoretical. Business leaders needed a more practical approach based on how real customers make purchasing decisions.

That realization led him to behavioral economics.

Pricing Is More Than a Financial Calculation

Many companies calculate prices by adding a standard profit margin to the cost of producing a product or delivering a service.

Others simply review competitor prices and attempt to remain slightly higher or lower.

Neither method fully accounts for customer psychology, perceived value, brand positioning, differentiation, or purchasing behavior.

According to Sjöfors, pricing should not be treated as a simple mathematical exercise. It should be treated as a strategic growth function.

When a company understands why customers buy, what they value, and what increases their willingness to pay, it can develop prices that improve sales volume, profitability, and customer satisfaction.

Sjöfors calls this the paradox of price.

The One Percent Pricing Challenge

One of the most striking lessons from the episode is the potential impact of a seemingly minor price increase.

Sjöfors explains that, for an average company, a one percent increase in price may lead to an approximately 11.3 percent increase in profit.

The exact result varies based on the company’s existing margins, costs, and financial structure. However, the larger lesson remains important.

A small improvement in pricing can have a disproportionately large effect on profitability.

Sjöfors calls this the one percent challenge. He asks business leaders whether they have ever been unable to change something in their business by only one percent.

The question forces executives to reconsider whether their current pricing is truly optimized or simply familiar.

For several small public companies Sjöfors examined, a one percent increase in price would have produced profitability increases ranging from approximately five percent to more than twenty percent.

How Expectation Bias Influences Purchasing Decisions

One of the most important concepts discussed in the episode is expectation bias.

Expectation bias occurs when the price of a product influences what a customer expects from it.

When a price appears unusually low, customers may question the quality of the product or service.

They may wonder:

  • Why is this so inexpensive?
  • Is something wrong with it?
  • Will it provide the results I need?
  • Is this company experienced or trustworthy?

A low price does not always increase demand. In some situations, it can reduce demand by creating an expectation of inferior quality.

A higher price can create the opposite expectation. Customers may associate a premium price with superior quality, exclusivity, expertise, or better results.

This does not mean that companies should arbitrarily raise prices. It means that pricing communicates information, whether the business intends it to or not.

Purchasing Decisions Are Emotional

Sjöfors explains that purchasing decisions are largely emotional.

Consumers may believe they make purely rational decisions, but emotional responses frequently occur first. The rational mind then develops reasons to justify the decision.

This is why value perception, trust, presentation, branding, and expectations play such important roles in pricing.

A customer is not merely evaluating a number. The customer is evaluating what that number implies about the product, the company, the experience, and the expected outcome.

For marketers and business leaders, this means the pricing conversation cannot be separated from the overall customer experience.

As Anna frequently discusses through her work in digital marketing and business strategy, every element of the customer journey shapes perception. Pricing is part of that journey.

The Magnetic Middle

When companies offer three choices, customers frequently gravitate toward the middle option.

This is often described as the magnetic middle.

Customers may not want the cheapest option because it appears incomplete or inferior. They may also hesitate to select the most expensive option.

The middle option feels balanced and safe.

Businesses can use this behavior by creating a good, better, and best pricing structure in which the middle package is designed to be the most attractive choice.

Sjöfors recommends carefully managing the distance between the three prices. The middle option should make the premium option feel attainable while still appearing meaningfully better than the lowest-priced choice.

The goal is not to manipulate customers. The goal is to present choices in a way that makes differences in value easier to understand.

Price Anchoring Changes What Appears Affordable

Price anchoring occurs when the first price a customer sees becomes the reference point for every price that follows.

Sjöfors uses the example of a luxury retail store. After looking at four-thousand-dollar handbags, a six-hundred-dollar wallet may suddenly seem inexpensive.

The wallet did not become cheaper. The customer’s reference point changed.

Apple used a similar strategy when it introduced an Apple Watch priced at approximately $17,000 alongside a much less expensive version.

The extremely expensive watch generated attention, but it also made the standard version appear more affordable by comparison.

This strategy can be used in:

  • Website pricing tables
  • Business proposals
  • Restaurant menus
  • Service packages
  • Software subscriptions
  • Retail merchandising

Sjöfors recommends presenting the highest-priced option first. In many Western markets, customers read from left to right and top to bottom. The first price they encounter becomes the anchor.

Instead of presenting good, better, and best, companies may benefit from presenting best, better, and good.

Communicate Value Before Revealing the Price

Another major mistake occurs when companies display the price before explaining the value.

When a customer sees a price first, that number can dominate the entire purchasing decision.

The customer may never fully consider:

  • The problem being solved
  • The expected outcome
  • The company’s expertise
  • The quality of the service
  • The included support
  • The risk being reduced
  • The long-term financial value

This is especially important in business-to-business sales.

Sjöfors recommends presenting proposals rather than simply emailing them.

When a proposal is sent without a presentation, the buyer may immediately turn to the pricing page. The seller then loses the opportunity to explain the strategy, value, differentiation, and results behind the investment.

The price should be revealed in the context of value.

Differentiation Creates Pricing Power

Pricing power is the ability to increase prices without experiencing a corresponding loss in sales volume.

According to Sjöfors, meaningful differentiation is one of the primary drivers of pricing power.

When a company appears interchangeable with every competitor, customers naturally focus on price.

When a company offers something distinct and valuable, customers have more reasons to choose it beyond cost.

Differentiation does not always require inventing an entirely new product.

A company selling a physical product can add services. A service provider can add tools, resources, products, training, guarantees, or support.

In the episode, Sjöfors discusses Hilti, a professional tool company that differentiates itself through services such as fleet management, calibration, certification, and customer support.

The tools are important, but the ecosystem surrounding them helps justify the premium price.

Even Commodities Can Be Differentiated

Businesses sometimes assume they cannot differentiate because they sell a commodity.

Sjöfors provides several examples that challenge that belief.

One company sold truck tires. Tires can appear highly interchangeable, but the company also offered rapid roadside service. When a commercial driver experienced a tire problem, assistance could arrive quickly.

That service created value beyond the tire itself.

Another company rented steel plates used to cover road trenches.

A steel plate may appear to be the ultimate commodity. However, this company sent two people with each delivery truck. One person drove while the second person directed the placement of the plates.

Because the plates were extremely heavy, accurate placement saved customers time, labor, frustration, and risk.

The company also provided safety training, which helped position it as an industry authority.

According to Sjöfors, the company achieved a dominant market share while charging approximately twenty-five percent more than competitors.

The lesson is clear: Even when the underlying product is similar, the customer experience does not have to be.

Measure What Customers Value

Businesses often rely on intuition when developing marketing messages.

They promote the qualities they personally find important rather than the outcomes customers value most.

Sjöfors shares the example of a Swedish takeaway coffee chain that emphasized organic and sustainably grown coffee.

Research revealed that a different message was significantly more compelling: The coffee tasted better than the coffee customers made at home.

That message focused on the immediate customer benefit.

After changing the positioning, the company doubled sales volume without changing the underlying product.

The lesson is not that sustainability lacks value. The lesson is that companies must identify which value proposition most strongly influences the purchasing decision at the moment it occurs.

Structured willingness-to-pay research can help businesses determine:

  • What customers are willing to pay
  • Which features increase willingness to pay
  • Which messages increase purchase intent
  • Which customer segments perceive the most value
  • Which payment models reduce friction
  • Which differentiators increase satisfaction

Reduce Purchasing Risk During Uncertain Times

Economic uncertainty does not necessarily stop people from purchasing. It can, however, extend the amount of time they need to make a decision.

During uncertain periods, businesses should focus on reducing sales friction and perceived risk.

Strategies may include:

  • Clear guarantees
  • Better warranties
  • Free trials
  • Try-before-you-buy programs
  • Flexible payment plans
  • Responsive customer service
  • Easy returns
  • Transparent cancellation policies

Fear of making the wrong choice can be more influential than the expected benefit of making the right one.

Reducing that fear can increase conversion without reducing the price.

Customer-Friendly Subscriptions Build Trust

Subscriptions provide companies with predictable recurring revenue, which can be attractive to executives and investors.

However, a subscription strategy must also serve the customer.

When companies make subscriptions difficult to pause or cancel, they may generate short-term revenue while damaging long-term trust.

Anna explains that consumers should be able to withdraw their consent or change their communication preferences as easily as they provided them.

This applies to subscriptions, email marketing, text messaging, phone calls, and other customer relationships.

A customer-friendly system may ultimately improve retention because people feel comfortable subscribing when they know they remain in control.

The Hidden Cost of Discounting

Discounting is one of the most misunderstood strategies in business.

A five percent discount sounds minor to a customer. It may not be minor to the company.

Sjöfors explains that, for an average business, a five percent discount may eliminate approximately fifty-seven percent of profit.

The company may then need to more than double sales volume to produce the same total margin.

Most discounts do not generate that level of increased demand.

Frequent discounting can also train customers to wait.

When buyers know that a company discounts at the end of every month, quarter, or year, they delay purchasing until the discount appears.

The company has effectively taught the market not to pay full price.

Discounting should be intentional, limited, and tied to a larger strategic objective.

Use Bundling Instead of Reducing the Core Price

Bundling can provide customers with additional value without directly reducing the perceived value of the primary product.

Instead of offering ten percent off, a business might include:

  • An additional product
  • A consultation
  • Training
  • Priority support
  • Extended service
  • Free delivery
  • A complementary accessory

The additional item may have a relatively low delivery cost while carrying meaningful perceived value for the customer.

This protects the core price while still creating urgency and incentive.

Pricing Should Be a Company-Wide Strategy

Pricing does not exist in isolation.

It is affected by marketing, sales, brand positioning, product design, customer experience, service, payment options, guarantees, and communication.

A pricing test that ignores these variables may produce incomplete or misleading results.

The strongest pricing strategies examine the complete customer decision.

Business leaders should ask:

  • What outcome does the customer truly value?
  • What creates trust?
  • What creates hesitation?
  • What makes the company meaningfully different?
  • What price creates the appropriate expectation?
  • What options make the decision easier?
  • What can reduce risk without reducing price?

These questions connect pricing with the larger growth strategy.

The Most Important Takeaway

Many companies attempt to grow by selling more while continuing to underprice what they already sell.

They spend more on advertising, hire more salespeople, offer additional discounts, and increase production without first determining whether their prices accurately reflect customer value.

Pricing deserves the same level of research, strategy, and attention as marketing and sales.

A small improvement can create a meaningful increase in profitability. A poorly designed discount can erase that profitability just as quickly.

The businesses with the strongest pricing power are not necessarily the cheapest. They are the businesses that understand their customers, communicate value clearly, reduce risk, and create meaningful differentiation.

Watch the Full Episode

Watch Episode 123 of The Covert Code Podcast to hear Anna Covert and Per Sjöfors discuss pricing psychology, behavioral economics, discounting, customer satisfaction, and the strategies companies can use to turn pricing into a powerful engine for growth.

Learn more about The Covert Code Podcast and explore additional conversations with entrepreneurs, authors, executives, and business leaders.

Learn more about Per Sjöfors and his work through Sjöfors & Partners.

Discover The Price Whisperer: A Holistic Approach to Pricing Power through The Price Whisperer book page.

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Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

ANNA’S WEBSITES:
The Covert Code: https://thecovertcode.com/
Anna Covert: https://annacovert.com/
Covert Communication: https://covertcommunication.com/
Reactium: https://reactium.io/

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Why Pricing Is Your Most Powerful Growth Strategy with Per Sjöfors

The Covert Code Podcast, Episode 123

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Per Sjöfors, The Price Whisperer


Anna Covert [00:00:04]:

Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I am coming to you from the beautiful island of Oahu.

This week on The Covert Code, the topic is why pricing is the most powerful growth strategy.

My very special guest is Per Sjöfors, founder of Sjöfors & Partners. He is known as The Price Whisperer and has a bestselling book, The Price Whisperer: A Holistic Approach to Pricing Power.

He is a Forbes Business Council thought leader and a member of the C-Suite Hero Club. He has also been recognized by Inc. Magazine as one of the top ten most visionary leaders of our time and by Thinkers360 as a top global thought leader in sales.

He knows his stuff, and today we will uncover why pricing is one of the most overlooked and powerful growth strategies in business.

Tack så mycket, which means thank you in Swedish, to Per for being my guest today.

Per Sjöfors [00:01:05]:

Thank you. It is a pleasure to be on the show. It is a little unusual that we both have this Swedish heritage.

Anna Covert [00:01:16]:

We will jump right into it. Give me the CliffsNotes version of your very interesting story. What is your background, and how did you get to where you are now?

Per Sjöfors [00:01:31]:

The story of why I got into pricing began when I had the opportunity to run a couple of companies in Europe, one in Switzerland and one in the United Kingdom. That was before I came to the United States.

I came here to found and develop a business unit for a fairly large public company. After that, I had another four CEO positions.

In all of these companies, we conducted experiments with pricing because it was an area that interested me. Some of those experiments were very successful. The following quarter, revenues might increase by 25 or 30 percent. Other experiments were complete disasters.

What I learned about pricing in business school was, first, very limited. Second, it was too academic and theoretical. It was not something you could practically use as a business leader.

When I decided to set out on my own, I took that interest in pricing and asked myself what I would have needed as the CEO of those companies to make pricing an engine for growth.

What was I missing? Why could we not determine why some pricing experiments worked while others failed?

What I eventually concluded was that, to use pricing as a growth lever, you must leverage behavioral science, particularly the subset of behavioral science known as behavioral economics.

Several Nobel Prize winners have developed a deep understanding of how buyers make purchasing decisions. When you understand how people make those decisions, you can influence them.

When you influence purchasing decisions in the right way, using behavioral science, you can increase sales volume, increase prices, and increase customer satisfaction at the same time.

That is the paradox of price.

Most companies do not approach pricing this way. They say, “My cost is X, and the standard profit margin in my industry is Y, so that becomes my price.” Alternatively, they look at a competitor that did the same thing.

Anna Covert [00:04:45]:

We see that all the time. Coke and Pepsi are the classic business school example. Every other week, one of them is on sale.

That brings the entire industry down.

Per Sjöfors [00:05:02]:

Definitely.

For an average company, although no company is truly average, a one percent increase in price leads to an approximately 11.3 percent increase in profit.

I jokingly call this the one percent challenge.

I ask the CEOs I speak with, “Have you ever failed to change something by one percent?”

Anna Covert [00:05:45]:

That seems so nominal.

Per Sjöfors [00:05:49]:

Exactly.

To entertain myself, I went online and selected four relatively small public companies so I could access their financial information.

I calculated what a one percent price increase would do for each company. One would experience a five percent increase in profitability. One would experience a sixteen percent increase. Two would experience approximately a twenty-one percent increase in profitability.

Anna Covert [00:06:34]:

Is that based on the average sales price of the product to the consumer? Does it matter whether it is a large-ticket item?

Per Sjöfors [00:06:42]:

It is based on the resulting EBITDA and profit margin.

This is a lever that many companies do not understand.

They also do not understand the paradox of price. As human beings, we are imperfect and malleable. When you know how to influence a purchasing decision, you can achieve higher prices, higher sales volume, and higher customer satisfaction at the same time.

Anna Covert [00:07:21]:

Let us dive into that. What is one behavioral science principle we can discuss?

Per Sjöfors [00:07:29]:

I will explain two of the most important principles.

The first is expectation bias.

When we are presented with a price, that price itself creates an expectation about the quality and benefit of the product or service we are considering.

When the price is too low, we might say, “I want to buy this, but at this price, it probably will not be good enough.”

Anna Covert [00:08:14]:

Why is it so cheap?

Per Sjöfors [00:08:18]:

Exactly. Why is it so cheap?

I explain this to CEOs, and then they return to their companies and reduce prices by another fifteen percent.

One side of expectation bias is that when a price is too low, we assume the product is not very good. When the price is high, we tend to assume it is good.

A university study in Chicago placed participants in functional MRI machines and gave them wine. Participants were presented with a six-dollar wine and a one-hundred-dollar wine.

When researchers gave them the inexpensive wine but told them it was expensive, the pleasure centers in their brains lit up. When they gave them the inexpensive wine and said it was cheap, the pleasure centers did not respond in the same way.

The same expectation applied to the expensive wine. The participants’ perceived enjoyment was influenced by the price they believed they were paying.

Purchasing decisions are emotional.

Because we are supposed to be rational beings, we use our prefrontal cortex to add rational explanations to an emotional decision already made by the limbic system.

Sellers can leverage this in ways that are good for both the seller and the buyer.

Anna Covert [00:10:34]:

It reminds me of another one of my favorite behavioral science strategies, the magnetic middle.

When you have three options, one higher, one lower, and one in the middle, most people gravitate toward the middle. They do not want the most expensive or the cheapest option.

The middle should be the product you most want people to buy, and the other options should be priced so that the middle becomes their natural choice.

Per Sjöfors [00:11:01]:

I can tell you more about that.

If you have a good, better, and best structure, the middle option should be approximately two-thirds of the distance between the cheapest and most expensive options.

That structure means very few people purchase the cheapest option, while quite a few say, “For just a little more, I can purchase the most expensive one.”

This connects to another important principle in behavioral science, the anchoring effect.

Consider this example: If you have been in a Prada store looking at four-thousand-dollar handbags, a six-hundred-dollar wallet near the checkout appears to be a bargain.

The four-thousand-dollar price becomes the anchor in your mind, making six hundred dollars seem inexpensive by comparison.

One of the most successful or extreme examples I have seen occurred when Apple introduced the Apple Watch.

Apple had a $349 watch that it wanted to sell in volume, but it also offered a $17,000 version. The primary difference was that the more expensive watch had a gold case.

Every journalist covering the product launch wrote about the audacity of Apple selling similar electronics for either $349 or $17,000.

The point was not necessarily to sell a large number of $17,000 watches. The point was to make the $349 watch appear more affordable.

That is price anchoring.

If you have good, better, and best options, the anchor should be the most expensive option. Since people in Western markets generally read from top to bottom and left to right, the most expensive option should be the first price they see.

It should be presented as best, better, and good, rather than good, better, and best.

You can see this strategy on some websites.

For example, a platform might present a premium service for approximately $300 and then show a lower option for around $15. The premium option may not be intended to sell in large quantities. Its role may be to drive significant sales of the lower-priced service.

Anna Covert [00:14:40]:

That is a great tip.

Per Sjöfors [00:14:43]:

This applies to almost everything.

If you sell business-to-business through proposals, you should also have good, better, and best options. Those options should be presented in reverse order so the most expensive option is the first price the potential customer sees.

Likewise, a restaurant can place an extremely expensive special in the upper-left area of the menu. That makes everything else appear more affordable.

Anna Covert [00:15:27]:

You choose that location because it is one of the first things people see.

I now realize that in many high-end restaurants, the prix fixe menu, which is often the most expensive option, is presented first. The à la carte options appear afterward.

Per Sjöfors [00:16:19]:

Exactly.

Another common mistake occurs when businesses present a price before they communicate value.

Whenever you present a price, you must ensure the buyer understands the value before seeing that price.

Many consumer websites put the price at the top and the value description underneath it.

That is backward.

It encourages people to make decisions primarily based on price because they may never read the value description.

Anna Covert [00:17:23]:

That is important to consider with clothing and other products. On an overview page, perhaps you should not show only the product title and price. You may want the customer to click into the product, understand it, and then see the price.

Per Sjöfors [00:17:39]:

Definitely.

When selling business-to-business through proposals, you should present the proposal. You should never simply send it.

What happens when someone receives a proposal? They often immediately turn to the last page and ask, “Is this price reasonable?”

The entire point of developing the proposal is to explain your uniqueness, features, benefits, and value. When the buyer jumps directly to the price, their decision becomes driven by that number rather than the value you created.

Anna Covert [00:18:28]:

The price sets their expectation.

We have discussed expectation bias, anchoring, and the magnetic middle. What else is critical?

Per Sjöfors [00:18:47]:

A high price can create an expectation of value, quality, and exclusivity.

For a technical example, I have spent some time around the high-end audio industry.

You can buy a small USB cable online for approximately five dollars. You can also purchase an audiophile-grade cable for three thousand dollars.

There may be very little technical difference in the digital signal. However, someone who pays three thousand dollars for a three-foot USB cable may genuinely believe they hear a difference because they expect one.

As a result, they may be happy and satisfied customers.

That is another example of the paradox of price. You can increase price, customer satisfaction, and sales volume at the same time, but you must understand what matters to the customer.

You cannot rely only on directly asking customers because customers do not always accurately describe what drives their decisions.

Anna Covert [00:20:32]:

Absolutely.

Per Sjöfors [00:20:35]:

I speak with CEOs who agree that customers do not always tell the full truth. Then, in the next sentence, they say, “We talk to our customers all the time,” and they believe everything those customers say.

Another critically important factor in pricing is differentiation.

Differentiation is what gives companies pricing power.

Pricing power is a term Warren Buffett has used to describe a company’s ability to increase prices without losing sales volume.

Anna Covert [00:22:01]:

That connects to the elasticity of demand.

Per Sjöfors [00:22:04]:

Yes, although the straight-line demand curves taught in many economics classes do not accurately reflect reality.

We have already established that when a price is too low, sales volume can decrease because the low price creates an expectation of inferior quality or benefit.

Traditional straight-line demand curves assume that as the price falls, sales volume continually increases. That does not always happen.

Elasticity also changes at different price points.

There are psychological price points where a small pricing change can create a significant change in sales volume. Between those price points, demand may remain relatively flat.

I call these psychological thresholds price walls.

Suppose one price wall is at one hundred dollars and the next price wall is at one hundred and fifty dollars. If demand is relatively stable between those points, you would want to price as close to one hundred and fifty dollars as possible without crossing the next wall.

Anna Covert [00:24:37]:

That makes sense.

Per Sjöfors [00:24:46]:

We conducted work for a coffee chain in Sweden that sold takeaway coffee.

The company promoted its organic and sustainably grown coffee. That was its primary marketing message.

We found that changing the message to “This coffee tastes better than the coffee I make at home” doubled sales volume.

By moving away from a message chosen through intuition and instead measuring what increased willingness to buy and willingness to pay, the chain doubled in size.

From the company’s perspective, that message was counterintuitive.

From the customer’s perspective, however, coffee that tastes better than what they can make themselves is extremely valuable.

At the moment someone wants coffee, they may not care as much about whether it is organic. They care that it tastes better than the coffee they could make at home.

That can be measured.

This is not merely testing. It is measurement.

Online willingness-to-pay studies can measure what people are willing to pay, what motivates them to pay more, and what increases satisfaction.

Anna Covert [00:26:49]:

Returning to pricing power, how can listeners apply this? How can they determine whether they have pricing power?

Per Sjöfors [00:27:17]:

You cannot know without conducting the proper measurements.

If you test price alone, you are testing pricing in a vacuum.

Everything a company does affects customers’ willingness to buy and willingness to pay. That includes marketing, customer targeting, product variations, sales channels, payment options, and messaging.

Suppose you wanted to test six price points, three marketing channels, six marketing messages, three product variations, four payment structures, and three sales channels.

You could quickly end up with tens of thousands of possible combinations. You cannot realistically test every combination in the marketplace.

However, you can measure those variables through structured research in a couple of weeks.

In the coffee example, the company differentiated itself through marketing. It did not change the product or the location. It changed the message and doubled sales volume.

Anna Covert [00:29:01]:

They connected with what the customer expected to receive and what that outcome was worth.

Another challenge I frequently see across different industries is that companies do not fully understand what it costs to produce and deliver their product throughout the entire chain.

They do not account for contingencies, supply changes, or sudden shifts in demand.

During COVID, for example, the demand for toilet paper suddenly increased. Companies throughout the supply chain increased production, but by the time additional products reached the market, that unusual demand had disappeared.

Do you discuss how companies can monitor global supply and the factors that affect their ability to price correctly?

Per Sjöfors [00:30:11]:

That is not the primary focus of my book.

The book focuses on understanding customers and influencing their willingness to pay and willingness to buy.

We are living in a turbulent world. Tariffs change, energy markets shift, and people debate whether a recession or market decline is coming.

During turbulent periods, people do not necessarily stop purchasing, but their decisions take longer.

Anna Covert [00:31:20]:

That makes sense.

Per Sjöfors [00:31:21]:

Companies can respond by reducing sales friction.

According to behavioral economics, fear of making the wrong purchasing decision can be significantly more influential than the expected benefit of making the right one.

Anna Covert [00:32:01]:

That connects to loss aversion.

Per Sjöfors [00:32:03]:

Absolutely.

During turbulent periods, companies must consider how they can limit risk or the perception of risk.

That might include better warranties, trial periods, payment plans, improved customer service, guarantees, or free trials.

Not every company offers these protections.

Anna Covert [00:32:36]:

Some companies do the exact opposite. They make products difficult to return.

Everything now seems to have a subscribe-and-save feature. That can be useful, but some companies make subscriptions very difficult to cancel.

I believe that is a mistake.

A customer may simply want to pause a subscription or cancel before another charge. Making the process difficult can make that customer unwilling to purchase again.

Per Sjöfors [00:33:30]:

Many companies move toward subscriptions because predictable recurring revenue can increase shareholder value.

Investors generally appreciate subscription businesses because the revenue is predictable.

Anna Covert [00:33:48]:

Subscriptions can also be good for the customer when they are easy to control.

I like using Amazon subscriptions because I can easily pause, modify, or cancel them. I may want the discount and convenience, but if I am traveling for a month, I do not want more products arriving and being wasted.

I am a strong proponent of privacy and consumer protection. It should be as easy for people to withdraw their interest as it was for them to provide it.

If someone no longer wants texts, emails, or calls, or wants to change their preferences, companies should not make that difficult.

Per Sjöfors [00:34:43]:

For all its faults, Amazon does place the customer at the center.

It tries to make purchasing, returning products, and canceling subscriptions as easy as possible.

That intense customer focus helped Amazon become what it is today. It was not even the first company in the space, but it now dominates online sales.

Anna Covert [00:35:24]:

Let us talk about the illusion of Amazon Prime Day and discounting.

Many companies do not understand the power of discounts or how frequent discounting trains customers to value products less.

If a business runs an offer every week, customers learn not to purchase at full price. They know another discount is coming.

During events such as Prime Day, prices may be adjusted beforehand so that the later discount appears larger. There is an entire orchestration occurring behind the scenes.

What are your thoughts on discounting? When should companies use it, and when should they avoid it?

Per Sjöfors [00:36:16]:

When I give presentations to CEOs, I sometimes ask whether they know that prices often rise before Black Friday so they can later appear to fall.

Many people are surprised.

Let us return to the one percent price increase.

If a one percent increase can create a substantial increase in profitability, consider what a five percent discount can do.

For an average company, a five percent discount can eliminate approximately fifty-seven percent of profit.

To generate the same total margin after that discount, the company may need to increase sales volume by approximately 120 percent.

Is a five percent discount likely to double sales? Probably not.

Discounting should be used strategically, such as encouraging customers to move toward a more expensive product. It should not simply be applied across the board.

Companies should also avoid predictable end-of-quarter or end-of-year discounting.

In my previous career, I spoke with customers in April who told me, “I am going to buy from you, but I will wait until the final week of June because you will give me a better price.”

Buyers learn company discounting patterns and wait.

The company then leaves money on the table because of a purchasing delay it created itself.

Discounting can be a powerful tool, but it must be used with great care.

Anna Covert [00:39:26]:

Scarcity matters too. A promotion should feel meaningful and legitimate.

Many companies offer fifteen percent off a first order. Customers then begin to expect ten or fifteen percent off every order.

If they do not receive it, they may unsubscribe and resubscribe or use a different email address.

That creates additional costs for email marketing, text messaging, call centers, and data storage.

Per Sjöfors [00:40:19]:

There are alternatives to discounting, including bundling.

When you bundle products, you can add value for the customer.

You may take a small margin reduction, but it is often much smaller than the loss caused by directly discounting the primary product.

The cost of providing two complementary products can be significantly lower than the revenue loss created by a broad discount.

Many businesses do not understand how much additional volume they need to compensate for even a small discount.

Anna Covert [00:41:12]:

When you discuss the one percent challenge, are you recommending an increase of one percent each year or each quarter?

Per Sjöfors [00:41:21]:

The one percent challenge is primarily intended to wake people up to the power of pricing.

If a one percent increase makes such a significant difference in profitability, why not investigate whether the business could increase prices by three or five percent?

Anna Covert [00:41:54]:

That reminds me of a case study from business school about couponing.

Suppose I have one million bags of chips in a warehouse. I know what I paid for them and what my margin is. I distribute a buy-one-get-one coupon in magazines.

The promotion may be profitable while I am clearing existing inventory. However, once that inventory is gone, I must purchase more products while coupons are still circulating and being redeemed.

At that point, every redemption may begin reducing profitability.

Businesses frequently overlook the full financial implications.

What other pricing recommendations would you give business owners?

Per Sjöfors [00:43:01]:

There are many additional recommendations in my book.

Fundamentally, it returns to differentiation.

Differentiation gives companies pricing power.

If you sell something that is a commodity or appears to be one, you can differentiate a physical product by adding services. If you sell a service, you can add products.

One example I use is Hilti, a company that makes professional hand tools.

Hilti is based in Liechtenstein, a small country between Switzerland and Austria. It is not a low-cost place to operate.

Hilti makes very good tools, but the company also offers a wide range of services, including fleet management, calibration, certifications, and other forms of support.

Those services help justify higher prices compared with lower-cost tools that may include little or no customer support.

Hilti differentiates itself through quality and services that competitors may not offer.

Understanding meaningful differentiation is extremely important.

We also worked with a company that sold truck tires, which can appear to be a commodity.

The company operated service vehicles along major roads. When a truck driver had a flat tire or another tire problem, a service vehicle could often arrive within approximately fifteen minutes.

The company made money from that service, but the service also differentiated its tire business.

Another company rented steel road plates used to cover trenches.

Steel plates are highly commoditized. However, this company differentiated itself by sending two people in each delivery truck.

One person drove. The other stood outside and directed the driver to place the heavy steel plates in the exact location where the customer needed them.

Competitors sent one driver who might leave the plates wherever that person thought was appropriate.

Because the plates are extremely heavy, placing them incorrectly can create a significant problem.

The company also provided safety training for workers digging trenches, positioning itself as a thought leader in the industry.

As a result, the company achieved approximately sixty-five to seventy percent market share while charging prices approximately twenty-five percent higher than competitors.

That is the power of differentiation.

Anna Covert [00:48:09]:

That is really interesting. Where can people find your book?

Per Sjöfors [00:48:12]:

Because I have an unusual Swedish name, the easiest way is to search for “The Price Whisperer.”

I write frequently, and I also have a YouTube channel and other resources available online.

Anna Covert [00:48:43]:

We will have to do a book swap. I will send you mine, and you can send me yours.

Per Sjöfors [00:48:46]:

Absolutely.

I love talking about pricing. With your marketing background, you understand this better than most.

Anna Covert [00:49:01]:

Thank you.

I will include links to Per’s information in the episode description.

Thank you to everyone listening. If you have not already done so, please subscribe to this channel.

We recently reached 200,000 subscribers, and it is because of you and your support. Thank you for sharing this content with your friends and family so I can continue attracting brilliant guests like Per to share their wisdom with us.

I will see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

Per Sjöfors:

Thank you so much, Anna. It was a pleasure.


I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

If you are enjoying the insights shared here, follow us on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. Your support helps us reach more digital innovators like you.

Share this episode with your friends and colleagues on social media and help spread the word.

If you work in solar or are curious about where clean energy is headed, follow Anna Covert’s other podcast, The Solar Coaster. The show explores the real stories, trends, and challenges shaping the solar industry through bold conversations and practical takeaways.

Thanks for tuning in. See you in the pixels. Aloha.

Comments Off on Episode 123 – Per Sjöfors

Episode 122 – Gideon Enok

By |2026-07-16T04:26:31+00:00July 16th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Pilgrim Spirit: What Happens When You Say Yes to the Journey

What would happen if you stopped waiting for the “right time” and simply took the first step?

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with author, modern-day pilgrim, and global traveler Gideon Enok to discuss one of the most remarkable journeys I’ve ever heard. After life unexpectedly came to a halt during the global pandemic, Gideon packed a backpack and began walking more than 7,000 kilometers across Europe toward Santiago de Compostela.

While many people would see this as an incredible physical challenge, Gideon describes it as something much deeper—a journey of healing, self-discovery, faith, and learning to trust the unknown.

His story is a reminder that sometimes our greatest transformations begin not with a perfectly crafted plan, but with the courage to simply take the next step.

Life Doesn’t Always Give You a Roadmap

Like many entrepreneurs and professionals, Gideon found himself facing unexpected change. The pandemic disrupted life around the world, relationships changed, businesses slowed, and uncertainty became the new normal.

Instead of allowing those circumstances to define him, he chose movement over stagnation.

That decision became the beginning of a five-month pilgrimage that would reshape his understanding of success, purpose, and fulfillment.

One of the themes we often discuss on AnnaCovert.com is that growth rarely happens inside our comfort zone. Gideon’s story is a perfect example of what becomes possible when we choose courage over certainty.

The Three Phases of Transformation

During our conversation, Gideon shared what he calls the three phases every pilgrim experiences.

The first is physical.

When you begin walking day after day, your body must adapt to the challenge.

The second phase is mental.

As distractions disappear, emotions begin to surface. Old fears, stress, grief, frustration, and limiting beliefs often rise to the surface because there is finally space to process them.

The final phase is spiritual.

This isn’t necessarily about religion. Instead, it’s about reconnecting with yourself, discovering inner peace, and recognizing that many of the answers you’ve been searching for were already within you.

Whether you’re walking across Europe or navigating a challenging season in business, these same phases often appear in our own lives.

Slowing Down Can Help You Move Forward

One of my favorite moments from our conversation centered around the idea that slowing down is not the same as falling behind.

In today’s world we’re constantly encouraged to move faster, produce more, and stay connected every waking moment.

But Gideon discovered something different.

Walking created space.

Without constant notifications, meetings, and distractions, he found greater clarity about his purpose and the direction he wanted his life to take.

That lesson extends far beyond a pilgrimage.

Many entrepreneurs, executives, and business owners find their best ideas during quiet moments—not while staring at another screen.

The Power of Surrender

Another powerful lesson from Gideon’s journey was learning the difference between surrender and giving up.

Too often we associate surrender with weakness.

Gideon sees it differently.

Surrender means releasing the need to control every outcome while continuing to move forward with intention.

It means trusting the process even when you cannot yet see the destination.

That mindset applies equally to entrepreneurship, leadership, relationships, and personal growth.

Self-Respect Changes Everything

Throughout the conversation, Gideon returned to one important idea: self-respect.

When we respect ourselves, we make better decisions.

We establish healthier boundaries.

We become less reactive to outside opinions.

We stop living according to other people’s expectations and begin creating lives aligned with our own values.

That shift influences every area of life—from career decisions to business leadership to personal relationships.

The Pilgrim Mindset

You don’t have to walk thousands of kilometers to embrace the pilgrim spirit.

Anyone can begin adopting the mindset Gideon describes.

Stay curious.

Remain present.

Trust yourself.

Spend time in nature.

Slow down enough to hear your own thoughts.

Continue taking the next step, even when you don’t yet know where the path leads.

These principles have the power to transform not only our businesses but our lives.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear my full conversation with Gideon Enok about resilience, mindfulness, the Camino de Santiago, faith, purpose, and the life-changing lessons of becoming a modern-day pilgrim, listen to this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

You can learn more about Gideon, download a free chapter of his book, and explore his work by visiting The Pilgrim Spirit. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn, follow him on Instagram, or watch his videos on YouTube.

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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

ANNA’S WEBSITES:
The Covert Code: https://thecovertcode.com/
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Covert Communication: https://covertcommunication.com/
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Transcript: The Pilgrim Spirit — What Happens When You Say Yes to the Journey

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Gideon Enok


Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha! My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is The Pilgrim Spirit: What Happens When You Say Yes to the Journey.

Anna Covert [00:00:23]: My very special guest is Gideon Enok, a global traveler, author, and modern-day pilgrim who has trekked more than 7,000 kilometers across multiple countries in search of purpose, growth, and a deeper understanding of what really happens when you simply keep moving forward.

Anna Covert [00:00:43]: In his book, The Pilgrim Spirit, Gideon chronicles a five-month journey across Europe during the global pandemic and shares the life-changing lessons he learned along the way.

Anna Covert [00:00:56]: Today we'll be talking about adventure, resilience, trusting the unknown, and what it really means to follow your heart—not only in life, but in business.

Anna Covert [00:01:07]: Gideon, thank you so much for joining me today.

Gideon Enok [00:01:10]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

From Sales to Self-Discovery

Anna Covert: Let's start at the beginning. Before you became this modern-day pilgrim, what did life look like? What were you doing, and what ultimately led you down this path?

Gideon Enok: Everything really started around 2009. I attended a personal development seminar that completely shifted my perspective. The following Monday I went to work, sat down at my sales job, and something inside me had changed. It felt like my entire worldview had shifted overnight.

Gideon Enok: I became fascinated with personal growth, entrepreneurship, mindset, and understanding how our conscious and subconscious minds influence our lives.

Gideon Enok: I started reading everything I could find. I became obsessed with learning and discovering what was possible beyond simply working every day.

Gideon Enok: Toward the end of that year, I made a poor investment and lost a significant amount of money. At the same time, my former boss had moved to Australia after losing his own job.

Gideon Enok: I reached a point where I realized I needed to completely change my environment.

Gideon Enok: Within forty-two days, I sold or gave away nearly everything I owned, packed a backpack, and moved to Perth, Australia.

Anna Covert: Did you ever think you'd return to Denmark?

Gideon Enok: At the time, honestly, no. I told my parents at the airport that I wasn't coming back. I believed I was starting an entirely new life.

The Pandemic Changed Everything

Anna Covert: Fast forward to 2020. The world shuts down. You're back in Europe, going through a difficult breakup, and life feels uncertain. What happened?

Gideon Enok: I found myself living alone in a small farmhouse, feeling stuck and deeply unhappy. One morning I woke up knowing something had to change.

Gideon Enok: I sat down to meditate for several hours. Afterward, I felt an urge to walk to the ocean, about ten kilometers away.

Gideon Enok: Standing there looking across the water, I heard what felt like a clear voice asking, "Why don't you walk from Denmark to Santiago?"

Gideon Enok: It startled me because it felt incredibly real.

Gideon Enok: A couple of weeks later, I trusted that intuition, packed my backpack, and began walking toward Santiago de Compostela.

Walking Into the Unknown

Anna Covert: What were you hoping to find?

Gideon Enok: Honestly, I didn't know.

Gideon Enok: I simply believed the journey would change my life. I trusted that feeling completely.

Gideon Enok: Looking back, that trust became one of the greatest lessons of the entire pilgrimage.

Why Walking Changes Us

Anna Covert: There are so many people today who feel overwhelmed by uncertainty. We have technology, global conflict, social media, and constant distractions.

Anna Covert: What did walking teach you about navigating uncertainty?

Gideon Enok: Walking reconnects us with something incredibly ancient.

Gideon Enok: Human beings have always walked. We explored the world on foot long before modern transportation existed.

Gideon Enok: When we slow down enough to walk day after day, something inside us begins slowing down too.

Gideon Enok: We spend so much time on computers, phones, and social media that our minds rarely get a chance to rest.

Gideon Enok: Walking restores that balance.

The Three Phases of the Camino

Gideon Enok: In my book, I describe what I call the three phases of the Camino.

Gideon Enok: The first phase is physical.

Gideon Enok: During the first ten to fourteen days, your body simply adapts to walking every day while carrying everything you own.

Gideon Enok: Once your body adjusts, you enter the second phase, which is mental.

Gideon Enok: That's where many of your emotional burdens begin surfacing.

Gideon Enok: As you continue walking, you release stress, trauma, frustration, grief, anger, and everything you've been carrying for years.

Gideon Enok: It isn't always comfortable.

Gideon Enok: There were days when I cried.

Gideon Enok: There were days when I became frustrated.

Gideon Enok: There were moments when I questioned everything.

Gideon Enok: But continuing to walk became part of the healing process.

Gideon Enok: Eventually, you arrive at what I call the spiritual phase.

Gideon Enok: That's where you begin feeling connected again—to yourself, to other people, and to something larger than yourself.

Gideon Enok: Many people reconnect with loved ones, forgive old wounds, or discover a deeper sense of peace during this phase.

Anna Covert: I love that because it feels very similar to life itself.

Gideon Enok: Exactly. I often say these aren't only the three phases of the Camino.

Gideon Enok: They're the three phases we often experience throughout life.

Meditation, Walking, and Mental Clarity

Anna Covert: One of the themes that kept coming up throughout your journey was meditation. How did that become such an important part of your life?

Gideon Enok: Meditation taught me how to observe my thoughts instead of becoming controlled by them. When you're walking eight or ten hours a day, your mind has nowhere to hide. Eventually the constant mental chatter begins to quiet, and you start hearing your intuition much more clearly.

Gideon Enok: I often tell people that walking itself became my meditation. Every step became part of the practice.

Anna Covert: That's beautiful because so many people think meditation means sitting perfectly still for an hour.

Gideon Enok: Exactly. Meditation can happen while you're walking, breathing, or simply becoming fully present. The important part is learning to become aware of your thoughts instead of constantly reacting to them.

Writing The Pilgrim Spirit

Anna Covert: At what point did you know this journey would become a book?

Gideon Enok: I didn't know at the beginning.

Gideon Enok: I was journaling every day because I wanted to remember what I was experiencing. The more I wrote, the more I realized these lessons weren't only helping me—they might help other people too.

Gideon Enok: Eventually those journals became the foundation for The Pilgrim Spirit.

Gideon Enok: My hope is that readers don't simply read about my journey. I hope they begin their own.

The Eight Principles of the Pilgrim

Anna Covert: Your book shares what you call the Eight Principles of the Pilgrim. Tell us about those.

Gideon Enok: Those principles came directly from the experiences I had while walking.

Gideon Enok: They aren't theories. They're lessons earned through thousands of kilometers on the trail.

Gideon Enok: They include trust, surrender, presence, gratitude, courage, self-respect, service, and faith.

Gideon Enok: None of these principles are mastered overnight. They become lifelong practices.

Anna Covert: I love that they aren't just ideas—they're things people can actually practice.

Gideon Enok: Exactly. Wisdom only matters when we apply it.

Learning to Surrender

Anna Covert: One word that came up repeatedly throughout your story was surrender. I think people sometimes confuse surrender with giving up.

Gideon Enok: They are completely different.

Gideon Enok: Giving up means losing hope.

Gideon Enok: Surrender means letting go of trying to control every outcome.

Gideon Enok: During the pilgrimage I couldn't control the weather, where I would sleep every night, or who I would meet.

Gideon Enok: The more I trusted the journey, the more life seemed to meet me exactly where I needed it to.

Anna Covert: That's something entrepreneurs struggle with too. We spend so much time trying to control everything.

Gideon Enok: Absolutely. Sometimes our greatest opportunities appear after we release the need to control every step.

The Importance of Self-Respect

Anna Covert: Another topic that really resonated with me was self-respect.

Gideon Enok: Self-respect changes everything.

Gideon Enok: Many people spend their lives trying to earn respect from others while forgetting to respect themselves.

Gideon Enok: Healthy boundaries, honesty, keeping promises to yourself, and treating yourself with kindness are all expressions of self-respect.

Gideon Enok: Once you truly respect yourself, your relationships begin changing naturally.

The Unexpected Kindness of Strangers

Anna Covert: Throughout your journey you encountered incredible generosity from complete strangers.

Gideon Enok: Yes.

Gideon Enok: One experience in Belgium really stayed with me.

Gideon Enok: I had nowhere to stay that evening and wasn't sure what I was going to do.

Gideon Enok: Someone I had never met welcomed me into their home without expecting anything in return.

Gideon Enok: Moments like that reminded me that people are fundamentally good.

Gideon Enok: We hear so much negative news every day, but my experience walking across Europe showed me tremendous kindness from complete strangers.

Faith, Intention, and Imagination

Anna Covert: We also talked about imagination and faith.

Gideon Enok: Everything begins in imagination.

Gideon Enok: Before we create something physically, we first create it mentally.

Gideon Enok: Faith isn't pretending everything will be easy.

Gideon Enok: Faith is continuing forward even when you cannot yet see the destination.

Anna Covert: That's a powerful way to describe entrepreneurship as well.

Gideon Enok: Absolutely. Every entrepreneur walks through uncertainty.

Finding Love Along the Journey

Anna Covert: One unexpected outcome of your pilgrimage was meeting your future wife.

Gideon Enok: Yes.

Gideon Enok: Had I never begun walking, our paths likely never would have crossed.

Gideon Enok: Looking back, it's another reminder that saying yes to one courageous decision often opens doors we never could have planned.

Advice for Someone Feeling Stuck

Anna Covert: If someone listening feels stuck today, what's the first piece of advice you'd give them?

Gideon Enok: Start moving.

Gideon Enok: You don't have to walk across Europe.

Gideon Enok: Go outside.

Gideon Enok: Take a walk.

Gideon Enok: Sit quietly.

Gideon Enok: Listen.

Gideon Enok: Often the answers we're searching for begin appearing once we slow down enough to hear them.

How to Connect with Gideon

Anna Covert: Where can people learn more about your work?

Gideon Enok: The best place is my website, ThePilgrimSpirit.com.

Gideon Enok: People can download a free chapter of the book, learn more about my journey, connect with me on LinkedIn and Instagram, or follow my YouTube channel where I continue sharing lessons from the pilgrimage.

Closing Thoughts

Anna Covert: Gideon, thank you so much for joining me today. I truly enjoyed this conversation.

Gideon Enok: Thank you. It was a pleasure being here.

Anna Covert: And thank you to all of our listeners for joining us for another episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

Anna Covert: If you haven't already, please subscribe and share this episode with someone who could use a reminder that sometimes the most important journey is simply taking the next step.

Anna Covert: Until next time, I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels.

Anna Covert: Aloha.

Comments Off on Episode 122 – Gideon Enok

Episode 121 – Gina Riley

By |2026-07-14T20:12:24+00:00July 8th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Why Qualified Isn’t Enough: How to Stand Out and Land Executive Opportunities

The job market has changed.

Being qualified still matters, but it is no longer enough to guarantee opportunity.

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with executive career strategist Gina Riley for her second appearance on the show. Gina is the founder of Gina Riley Consulting, a LinkedIn Top Voice, and the author of the Amazon best-selling book Qualified Isn’t Enough.

In our conversation, Gina shared why job seekers, especially executives and senior leaders, can no longer afford to play small. Between longer hiring cycles, more competition, AI-driven applications, and shifting recruiter behavior, professionals need more than a polished resume. They need visibility, credibility, and a clear point of view.

The Job Market Is More Competitive Than Ever

Gina explained that leadership roles are becoming increasingly competitive. There are fewer roles at the top, more candidates competing for them, and hiring cycles that can stretch for months.

For senior leaders, a four-month hiring process can actually be considered fast. In many cases, opportunities may take six, twelve, or even eighteen months to fully develop.

That is why relying only on online applications is no longer an effective strategy, especially for executives.

Gina recommends that senior leaders spend the majority of their effort building relationships, networking, and gaining referrals rather than simply applying online and hoping to be noticed.

Qualifications Get You Considered. Visibility Creates Opportunity.

One of the strongest takeaways from this episode was Gina’s reminder that qualifications are only the starting point.

Your experience proves capability.

Your qualifications get you considered.

But your visibility creates opportunity.

This is especially true in a noisy marketplace where resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and job applications are beginning to sound increasingly similar because of AI-generated content.

As we often discuss on AnnaCovert.com, personal branding is not about ego. It is about clarity, trust, and making it easier for the right people to understand the value you bring.

Why Professionals Cannot Afford to Play Small

Playing small can show up in many ways.

It can look like waiting to be noticed.

It can look like avoiding visibility because you do not want to appear self-promotional.

It can look like only posting on LinkedIn when you need a job.

It can also look like allowing imposter syndrome to keep you from sharing your expertise.

Gina made an important distinction: strategic visibility is not the same as self-promotion.

Strategic visibility is about sharing helpful insights, mentoring others, contributing to your professional community, and demonstrating the value you create.

LinkedIn Is Not Just an Online Resume

One of the biggest mistakes Gina sees professionals make is treating LinkedIn like a static resume.

LinkedIn is much more than that.

It is a professional marketing platform.

Your profile should clearly communicate who you are, what you do, what problems you solve, and what kind of impact you create.

That means having a strong headline, a clear about section, an updated profile photo, and a banner that supports your professional positioning.

But beyond the profile itself, Gina emphasized the importance of using LinkedIn as a place to share thought leadership. Short posts, videos, lessons learned, professional insights, and helpful commentary can all help build credibility over time.

AI Can Help, But It Can Also Make You Sound Generic

AI is changing the job search process on both sides.

Job seekers are using AI to write resumes, cover letters, LinkedIn profiles, and application materials. Employers and recruiters are also using technology to filter, organize, and evaluate candidates.

Gina’s warning is clear: if you let AI write your brand without your own authentic input, you risk sounding like everyone else.

AI can be incredibly useful for brainstorming, organizing ideas, preparing for interviews, and helping job seekers think through their stories. But it should not replace the deeper work of understanding your value proposition.

That deeper work includes knowing your strengths, your leadership style, your career themes, your results, and the specific impact you have created.

Impact Matters More Than Responsibilities

Another important theme from our conversation was the difference between responsibilities and impact.

Many professionals describe what they were responsible for.

But recruiters and hiring teams want to know what changed because you were there.

Did you increase revenue?

Did you improve efficiency?

Did you reduce costs?

Did you lead a team through change?

Did you build something new?

Gina recommends framing career stories around results, action, and situation. This helps candidates lead with measurable outcomes instead of simply listing duties.

Executive Presence Still Matters

In a world shaped by digital tools and AI, human presence still matters deeply.

Gina discussed how eye contact, communication style, confidence, emotional intelligence, and the ability to read a room all contribute to executive presence.

These are the qualities that cannot be fully captured on a resume.

They show up in conversations, interviews, networking meetings, presentations, and leadership moments.

For executives, technical qualifications may open the door, but presence and trust often determine whether the opportunity moves forward.

Build Your Network Before You Need It

One of Gina’s strongest pieces of advice was to build relationships before you are actively job searching.

When professionals wait until they are in transition to start networking, the process can feel awkward or transactional.

But when you consistently contribute, support others, share ideas, and stay visible within your industry, your network becomes a long-term career asset.

As Gina explained, the best opportunities often come through relationships, referrals, and professional reputation.

The Future Belongs to Visible Leaders

This episode was a powerful reminder that the job market rewards more than credentials.

It rewards clarity.

It rewards confidence.

It rewards relationships.

It rewards visibility.

For executives and professionals who want to grow their careers, the message is clear: stop waiting to be discovered.

Start showing people what you know, how you think, and the value you bring.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear the full conversation with Gina Riley, visit The Covert Code Podcast.

You can learn more about Gina at Gina Riley Consulting, connect with her on LinkedIn, or explore her book Qualified Isn’t Enough on Amazon.

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📚 ABOUT HOST ANNA COVERT:
Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

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Transcript: Why Qualified Isn't Enough — How to Stand Out and Land Executive Opportunities

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Gina Riley


Anna Covert [00:00:05]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is why job seekers can't afford to play small. My special guest is returning for her second Covert Code appearance, the amazing Gina Riley.

Anna Covert [00:00:25]: Gina is an executive career coach at Gina Riley Consulting. She is also known as a LinkedIn Top Voice and author of the Amazon bestseller Qualified Isn't Enough.

Anna Covert [00:00:40]: The last time Gina was on the show, we talked about why qualified isn't enough. I invited her back because people loved that episode so much, and with everything happening in the job market, I thought it was important for her to return and talk about why professionals can't afford to play small.

Anna Covert [00:00:58]: Welcome back to the show.

Gina Riley [00:01:00]: Thank you.

The Current Job Market

Anna Covert: Since your first appearance on The Covert Code, what have you seen in the job market that concerns you?

Gina Riley: The thing that concerns me most is that there is more competition now for fewer roles, especially fewer leadership roles. I work primarily with leaders, and when you look at the tip of the triangle, there are fewer jobs to begin with.

Gina Riley: With layoffs and company acquisitions, sometimes entire leadership teams are let go from acquired companies. There is a lot of competition and very long hiring cycles.

Gina Riley: When I start working with someone and they say they have an interview opportunity, I tell them they will be lucky to have an actual offer in four months if they are the top candidate. Four months is good. It can be six months, twelve months, or eighteen months as you go up the hierarchy.

Gina Riley: It is much more important now to demonstrate your impact and not just rely on a stale resume. AI is also making it easier to apply, which increases competition, but it can also reduce differentiation.

AI and Online Applications

Anna Covert: With all these applicants and AI tools, people can have a professional look, but then everyone starts to sound the same. Are we still seeing AI reading applications?

Gina Riley: If a person is a true executive or senior leader aiming for higher-level jobs, they should spend only a tiny fraction of their time applying online.

Gina Riley: That means they are not worrying as much about whether AI is reading their resume. They should be doubling down. Ninety-five percent of their effort should be on relationship building, networking, and gaining referrals.

Gina Riley: Applying online is valid, but for senior leaders, even a five percent response rate is better than average. Often, people are not being seen in those systems, and it is not only AI's fault.

Gina Riley: It can be how the system is configured, how recruiters use the system, how AI reads and sorts content, or even how job seekers answer prequalifying questions.

Gina Riley: If a question asks whether you are willing to work for $150,000 and you say no because you want $250,000, you may be filtered out before the recruiter ever sees your application.

Qualifications, Experience, and Visibility

Anna Covert: What matters more today: qualifications, experience, or visibility?

Gina Riley: Qualifications get you considered. They are the minimum bar to entry. Experience proves your capability. But visibility is what creates your opportunity.

Gina Riley: If you are not being seen, you are not getting heard. You have to get seen to get heard.

Gina Riley: But if you are sharing visibility without creating value through your thought leadership and helpfulness, then you are just making noise. You want to be visible while adding value.

Why Leaders Can't Play Small

Anna Covert: Let's talk about the idea of playing small. For a long time, leadership was hidden behind the company. Now that seems to be changing.

Gina Riley: Leaders have to step up, and they needed to do it yesterday. There is a fear of appearing self-promotional, but when you focus on the value you offer and the impact you make, you can have a positive impact without being self-promotional.

Gina Riley: The danger of playing small is waiting to get noticed. I call that getting plucked from obscurity. No one is coming to rescue you. You own your own career.

Gina Riley: Senior leaders can also suffer from imposter syndrome, which may hold them back from stepping out with thought leadership. It can cause people to retreat instead of expanding the relationships they need.

Imposter Syndrome and Unique Value

Anna Covert: A lot of this makes me think about limiting beliefs and whether people believe they deserve to be at the forefront. Is imposter syndrome common?

Gina Riley: I do not address imposter syndrome as a specific topic with my clients, but I do help alleviate it.

Gina Riley: In the first phase of my book, the first five chapters lay the groundwork. They help a person develop their unique value proposition brick by brick.

Gina Riley: How do we avoid imposter syndrome? By tapping into what makes us uniquely us: our natural talents, our approach to leadership, our unique career story, and the themes and patterns that show how good we are at what we do.

Gina Riley: We also build an impact and results repository that helps explain what you can do for an employer. You overcome imposter syndrome by getting grounded in why you are excellent at what you do.

Strategic Visibility

Anna Covert: Visibility does not just mean sitting in front of your computer and posting on LinkedIn. What are some ways people can become more visible without being salesy?

Gina Riley: I do love LinkedIn, and I am on it every day, but there are many ways to stay visible. You can share posts and insights about lessons you have learned. You can speak, mentor, volunteer, lead, and stay active in professional communities.

Gina Riley: I worked with a chief technology officer who thought he had nothing special to share. But he was leading 200 engineers, had been through M&A, and had consulting experience. He had content for days.

Gina Riley: Sometimes your first audience is your own employees and the people who already follow you and want to know you are credible and trustworthy.

Common Mistakes

Anna Covert: What are people doing that causes them to stay small or miss the mark?

Gina Riley: A major problem is overusing AI and diluting the actual brand. The materials may sound smart, but when people go to market, their own network cannot refer them because the messaging is confusing.

Gina Riley: Another mistake is relying too much on the resume. The resume is the leave-behind. The referral and the conversation are the lead.

Gina Riley: People also use generic profiles, fail to show a clear point of view, and only post on LinkedIn when they are job searching. That can feel awkward and transactional.

Breaking Through the Noise

Anna Covert: In marketing, sometimes you need breakout visibility techniques. For business owners, I have used FedEx campaigns because owners usually open those packages. Could job seekers do something similarly creative?

Gina Riley: I have not heard of many people doing that, but that is brilliant. I am taking notes in my mind.

Anna Covert: It feels like people need to take control back and not just be victims of the system.

Gina Riley: There is a defeatist mindset out there, but that does not serve the person who has it. My recommendation is to build a support team during that time.

Gina Riley: Do not allow your partner or spouse to be your only support. You may need a job seeker support group, a coach, accountability partners, or a small team of people who help you maintain hope and momentum.

Using AI for Career Growth

Anna Covert: What can people do to build new skills right now?

Gina Riley: AI is one of the biggest topics. People are taking classes and dabbling with AI, which is great. But do not just add a class to the bottom of your resume.

Gina Riley: You need to show how you are applying the knowledge and how you would use it to have impact. Think in dollar signs, percentages, numbers, increases, or decreases.

Gina Riley: Did you increase production? Did you decrease throughput time? What did you do with the AI? You need to demonstrate how you can use AI to accelerate the business.

LinkedIn as a Marketing Platform

Anna Covert: What are the biggest mistakes people make on LinkedIn when trying to position themselves for future opportunities?

Gina Riley: The first mistake is thinking of LinkedIn as your online resume. I think of it as your marketing storefront window.

Gina Riley: You need an updated profile, a banner with your value proposition, a good headshot, a headline that tells people what you do, and an about section that clearly explains what you do.

Gina Riley: I come from a recruiter perspective. I do not want the about section to begin with a long childhood story. I want to see what kind of leader you are immediately.

Gina Riley: Most importantly, treat LinkedIn as a broadcasting system where you share thought leadership, posts, and short-form video content.

Showing Impact

Gina Riley: Another mistake job seekers make, especially executives, is talking about responsibilities instead of impact.

Gina Riley: Do not just say you were responsible for something. Explain what you led, developed, created, increased, or improved.

Gina Riley: In my book, I talk about how to show impact using a framework called RAS: result, action, situation. Lead with the result, then explain the action and situation.

Making AI More Human

Anna Covert: One thing I am noticing with AI is the importance of thinking about how you want people to feel when they read something. Do you want them to feel that you are creative, innovative, reliable, or a team player?

Anna Covert: If you ask AI to consider the feeling you want the reader to have, the results change.

Gina Riley: That is so cool.

Rebuilding Professional Presence

Anna Covert: For someone who feels invisible within their organization or industry, what is the first step to rebuilding professional presence?

Gina Riley: First, get over the idea that you are being self-promotional.

Gina Riley: Shift your mindset from self-promotion to strategic visibility. Ask how you create value, how you help people, how you lead, and how you mentor.

Gina Riley: Can you teach me something rather than bragging about something? Can you share insights instead of only accomplishments?

Gina Riley: Visibility strategy is about how you can help other people.

Executive Presence and Interviewing

Anna Covert: AI can also be used for interview practice. You can ask it to interview you and ask more questions.

Gina Riley: Most of the work I do is in person because clients need to build their own stories. Ultimately, if you are an executive or leader, you will be in the room with human beings. You need authentic confidence to deliver those stories.

Gina Riley: Eye contact is also incredibly important. It is part of executive presence. I spoke with a very accomplished leader who did not look me in the eye for the first five minutes of our Zoom call. It makes the other person feel uncomfortable.

What Recruiters Are Looking For

Anna Covert: What should candidates be signaling to recruiters to stand out?

Gina Riley: You need to showcase adaptability, but you cannot just say you are adaptable. You need to show how you lead through change and help teams adapt.

Gina Riley: Emotional intelligence also matters. Organizations do not want to hire people who disrupt culture.

Gina Riley: You should also be able to influence across functions, even without positional power. Executive presence, change leadership, learning agility, and AI literacy are all important.

Gina Riley: For Gen X and younger boomers, the fear is relevance. You have to build a relevant story for yourself. No one is going to do that for you.

Global Trends and Career Risk

Anna Covert: Are global trends impacting the job market?

Gina Riley: I do not have one solid answer, but I do think many things affect leadership here in the U.S.

Gina Riley: One example is acquisitions. I have spoken with two CHROs this year whose companies were purchased by companies outside the country, and their entire leadership teams were let go.

Gina Riley: That is why people need to pay attention to their corporate environment, keep their LinkedIn profiles strong, have resumes ready, develop their stories, and continue networking.

What's Next for Gina

Anna Covert: What is next for you?

Gina Riley: My focus is on my private one-on-one coaching clients, delivering content for communities I am part of, and serving on the board of directors for the Intel Alumni Network.

Gina Riley: We have recorded sessions on YouTube where I guide conversations with experts or lead sessions myself. I am also building my private learning management system and converting my book chapters into an online course.

How to Connect with Gina

Anna Covert: How can people get ahold of you?

Gina Riley: GinaRileyConsulting.com. My email is Gina@GinaRileyConsulting.com, and I am on LinkedIn every day unless I am on vacation. I also write a newsletter and am about to start a Substack.

Closing

Anna Covert: Thank you so much for coming back. To all of my listeners, thank you for joining me again. If you have not subscribed yet, please do so. We are approaching 200,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha.

Anna Covert: Continue to share this content with your friends and family so I can bring more great guests like Gina back to share their wisdom with us. I cannot wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

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Episode 120 – Marty Fahncke

By |2026-07-14T20:08:51+00:00July 2nd, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

Most business owners spend years building their companies.

Far fewer spend time preparing to eventually leave them.

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Certified Merger & Acquisition Advisor Marty Fahncke to discuss one of the most overlooked aspects of entrepreneurship: preparing your business for a successful exit.

Whether you plan to sell your company next year or twenty years from now, Marty believes every business owner should begin building with the end in mind. His experience advising companies through more than $500 million in mergers and acquisitions has shown him that businesses prepared for sale are often healthier, more profitable, and ultimately worth significantly more.

Exit Planning Starts Earlier Than You Think

One of the biggest misconceptions Marty sees is that exit planning begins when an owner decides to retire.

In reality, the process should begin years before a business ever goes to market.

The systems you build, the financial records you maintain, the management team you develop, and the relationships you create all contribute to the eventual value of your company.

Businesses that rely entirely on their founder are often much harder to sell because buyers aren’t simply purchasing products or services—they’re purchasing a system that can continue operating without the owner.

This idea aligns closely with many of the growth strategies we discuss on The Covert Code Podcast. Strong businesses are built on systems, documentation, and leadership—not dependency.

The Four Stages of Owner Exit

Marty explained that exiting a business doesn’t always mean selling it outright.

Owners have several options depending on their personal goals, financial objectives, and succession plans.

Some choose to sell to strategic buyers. Others transition ownership to family members, employees, or business partners. Some gradually step away while maintaining partial ownership.

The important point is having a plan before circumstances force one upon you.

Why Clean Financials Matter

One of the strongest messages from our conversation centered on financial transparency.

Many entrepreneurs attempt to minimize taxable income throughout the life of their business. While that may reduce taxes in the short term, it can also reduce the perceived value of the business during an acquisition.

Potential buyers evaluate financial performance carefully.

The cleaner and more organized your records are, the easier it becomes for buyers to understand the true earning potential of the business.

Preparing accurate financial statements years before selling can significantly increase buyer confidence.

Building a Company Buyers Want

Buyers aren’t simply purchasing revenue.

They’re purchasing predictable systems, reliable employees, repeatable processes, loyal customers, and future opportunities.

Marty shared that businesses become dramatically more valuable when they can operate without the owner’s daily involvement.

That requires documentation, delegation, leadership development, and scalable systems.

It’s one reason digital infrastructure has become increasingly important. Through our work at Covert Communication, we’ve seen firsthand how organized CRMs, marketing automation, analytics, and digital assets can strengthen a company’s overall value.

Growth Through Acquisition

While many entrepreneurs focus exclusively on organic growth, Marty discussed the strategic role acquisitions can play.

Buying complementary businesses can accelerate expansion, increase market share, and strengthen competitive positioning.

Successful acquisitions, however, require careful due diligence, cultural alignment, and a clear integration strategy.

Growth should never come at the expense of operational stability.

How AI May Impact Business Valuations

Artificial intelligence has become a recurring topic on The Covert Code Podcast, and this episode was no exception.

Marty believes AI will increasingly help buyers evaluate businesses by improving financial analysis, identifying operational risks, and streamlining due diligence.

At the same time, AI will likely reward companies with well-documented processes and organized data while exposing operational weaknesses that previously went unnoticed.

Owners who embrace technology today may find themselves better positioned for tomorrow’s acquisitions.

Build a Better Business by Building a Saleable Business

Perhaps the most valuable lesson from our conversation was this:

You don’t build a saleable business because you plan to sell.

You build a saleable business because it becomes a better business.

Companies with strong systems, healthy financials, documented processes, empowered leadership, and clear strategic direction perform better regardless of whether they are ever sold.

Preparing for an exit ultimately prepares your company for long-term success.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear my full conversation with Marty Fahncke about exit planning, mergers and acquisitions, business valuation, and building a company buyers want, listen to this episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

You can learn more about Marty at Westbound Road, connect with him on LinkedIn, or follow him on Facebook.

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Transcript: Selling Your Business in Style — How to Maximize Value Before You Exit

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Marty Fahncke


Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is Selling Your Business in Style.

Anna Covert [00:00:18]: My very special guest is Marty Fahncke. He is a business investor, growth strategist, Certified Merger & Acquisition Advisor with Westbound Road LLC, and has more than 30 years of experience helping companies grow, scale, and ultimately sell.

Anna Covert [00:00:38]: Marty has worked with hundreds of companies that have collectively generated more than one billion dollars in revenue and has personally participated in over five hundred million dollars in mergers and acquisitions.

Anna Covert [00:00:52]: In his Amazon bestselling book, Boomers Sell the Business, he shares practical strategies business owners can use to increase the value of their companies before, during, and after an acquisition.

Anna Covert [00:01:02]: Marty, thank you so much for joining me today.

Marty Fahncke [00:01:05]: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I listened to a few episodes of your podcast, and I love the way you pull information out of your guests. I'm looking forward to sharing some great ideas today.

Anna Covert [00:01:18]: Thank you. Before we begin, if you're enjoying The Covert Code Podcast, please subscribe. We recently surpassed 200,000 subscribers, and that's because of you and your aloha. Let's dive in.

From Marketing to Mergers & Acquisitions

Anna Covert: We always begin with the Cliff Notes version. Tell us how you got from where you started to where you are today.

Marty Fahncke: I've spent most of my career in marketing. About twenty-five years ago I partnered with two other people and we started a business together. Roughly eighteen months later, someone offered us $1.5 million in cash for that business.

Marty Fahncke: At the time, we thought we were the smartest people in the world.

Marty Fahncke: Looking back, I later realized we had left nearly $24 million on the table because we didn't understand who was buying us, why they wanted the business, or how to properly negotiate the transaction.

Marty Fahncke: A few years later I was on the opposite side of the table. I had launched one of the early e-commerce businesses around 2000, and one of our competitors kept getting in our way.

Marty Fahncke: My CEO simply said, "Why don't you buy them?"

Marty Fahncke: I didn't even know what that process looked like, but I made the call. They wanted to sell.

Marty Fahncke: Our company was doing about $1.5 million in revenue. Their company was doing roughly $2 million. After acquiring and combining the businesses, our second-year revenue reached nearly $30 million.

Anna Covert: That's incredible.

Marty Fahncke: That experience taught me the incredible power of strategic acquisitions. One plus one doesn't always equal two. Sometimes one plus one equals eleven if you do it correctly.

Marty Fahncke: Ever since then I've been passionate about helping businesses grow through acquisition.

Why Marty Wrote "Boomers Sell the Business"

Anna Covert: What inspired you to finally write your book?

Marty Fahncke: I'd wanted to write a book for over twenty years, but never finished one. What finally pushed me over the finish line was watching business owners continually get caught unprepared when life forced them to exit their businesses.

Marty Fahncke: I began seeing what I call the "Five Ds and a B."

  • Divorce
  • Disease
  • Death
  • Debt
  • Disagreements
  • Burnout

Marty Fahncke: Every business owner will eventually exit their business somehow. Yet very few actually prepare for it.

Marty Fahncke: I received heartbreaking phone calls from owners diagnosed with cancer who suddenly couldn't operate their companies, spouses who unexpectedly passed away, and families who believed their business was worth millions only to discover it wasn't.

Marty Fahncke: I wanted to create a roadmap so owners wouldn't find themselves trapped without a plan.

Why Every Business Needs an Exit Strategy

Anna Covert: One thing I've heard repeatedly is that owners should begin preparing at least three years before selling.

Marty Fahncke: I completely agree. Three years is the minimum.

Marty Fahncke: Most buyers—and especially lenders like banks or the SBA—want to review at least three years of financial statements, tax returns, and bank records.

Marty Fahncke: If those records aren't organized, selling becomes much more difficult.

Marty Fahncke: But here's something important: even if you never intend to sell your business, you should still prepare it as if you might.

Marty Fahncke: A business with clean financials, documented systems, and leadership that doesn't rely entirely on the owner isn't just easier to sell—it's simply a better business to own.

Stay Ready

Anna Covert: In Hawaii we have a saying: "Stay ready."

Anna Covert: Whether you're surfing big waves or preparing for life's unexpected moments, you're always ready before the opportunity—or challenge—arrives.

Marty Fahncke: I love that. That's exactly the mindset business owners should have.

The First Steps Toward Building a Saleable Business

Anna Covert: Walk us through some of the practical steps.

Marty Fahncke: First, your financial statements need to be accurate and consistent.

Marty Fahncke: Many small businesses have personal expenses mixed into business accounts, incomplete balance sheets, or financial records that don't match tax returns.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers notice those inconsistencies immediately.

Marty Fahncke: The second major step is creating an operating system—not software, but documented processes for how your business operates.

Marty Fahncke: Think about buying a McDonald's franchise. Every process—from hiring employees to cleaning the restaurant—is documented.

Marty Fahncke: Your business should operate the same way. Everything critical should exist independently of the owner's memory.

The Four Stages of Owner Exit

Marty Fahncke: Business owners also need to exit their companies in stages.

  1. Exit the frontline work.
  2. Exit day-to-day management.
  3. Exit strategic operations by building executive leadership.
  4. Finally, exit ownership through a sale or transition.

Marty Fahncke: Every step you complete makes your company more valuable because buyers are purchasing a business—not simply buying you.

Anna Covert: That's a great distinction.

The Biggest Mistakes Business Owners Make

Anna Covert: What are some of the biggest mistakes you see owners make before trying to sell?

Marty Fahncke: The biggest mistake is waiting too long. Many owners don't think about selling until something forces the decision. By then, they don't have enough time to improve financial performance, strengthen management, or make the business more attractive to buyers.

Marty Fahncke: Another common mistake is believing the business is worth far more than the market says it is. Owners naturally have an emotional attachment to what they've built, but buyers evaluate businesses based on risk, cash flow, systems, and future opportunity—not emotion.

Marty Fahncke: That's why getting an objective valuation long before selling is so important.

Profit vs. Taxes

Anna Covert: One thing that surprised me was your discussion about taxes.

Marty Fahncke: Business owners often spend years trying to minimize taxable income. While that may reduce taxes today, it can significantly reduce the value of the business tomorrow.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers pay for earnings.

Marty Fahncke: If you've spent years making your business appear less profitable, you've also reduced what someone may be willing to pay for it.

Marty Fahncke: Sometimes paying a little more in taxes actually creates a much larger financial outcome when it's time to sell.

Anna Covert: That's something many business owners probably never think about.

Marty Fahncke: Exactly. That's why exit planning needs to involve accountants, attorneys, wealth advisors, and M&A professionals working together.

Building Systems Instead of Dependencies

Anna Covert: We talk a lot on this podcast about systems.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers don't want to buy a job.

Marty Fahncke: They want to buy a business.

Marty Fahncke: If every decision requires the owner's involvement, the business becomes much riskier.

Marty Fahncke: Great companies have documented processes, leadership teams, accountability, and employees empowered to make decisions.

Marty Fahncke: That's what creates transferable value.

Growing Through Acquisition

Anna Covert: You've also spent years helping companies grow through acquisition.

Marty Fahncke: Yes. Many entrepreneurs think growth only comes from selling more.

Marty Fahncke: Sometimes the fastest path to growth is acquiring another company.

Marty Fahncke: If you find a complementary business with loyal customers, talented employees, or strategic assets, acquisitions can dramatically accelerate growth.

Marty Fahncke: Of course, due diligence is critical. You need to understand the financials, the culture, the leadership, and the risks before making any acquisition.

Artificial Intelligence and Business Sales

Anna Covert: Since AI is changing every industry, how do you see it impacting mergers and acquisitions?

Marty Fahncke: AI will absolutely make due diligence faster.

Marty Fahncke: Buyers will be able to analyze financial statements, contracts, operational risks, and historical trends much more efficiently.

Marty Fahncke: But AI doesn't replace judgment.

Marty Fahncke: Human experience still matters when evaluating leadership, culture, customer relationships, and long-term strategic fit.

Anna Covert: I completely agree. AI is becoming an incredible assistant, but people still make the final decisions.

Marty Fahncke: Exactly.

The Four Types of Buyers

Anna Covert: Are all buyers looking for the same thing?

Marty Fahncke: Not at all.

Marty Fahncke: Strategic buyers may pay a premium because your business complements what they already own.

Marty Fahncke: Financial buyers focus on return on investment.

Marty Fahncke: Family offices have different objectives.

Marty Fahncke: Private equity groups evaluate businesses differently as well.

Marty Fahncke: Understanding who the buyer is often changes how you position the business.

Advice for Every Entrepreneur

Anna Covert: If someone listening owns a business today, what's the first thing they should do?

Marty Fahncke: Begin preparing now.

Marty Fahncke: Clean up your financial statements.

Marty Fahncke: Document your systems.

Marty Fahncke: Build a leadership team.

Marty Fahncke: Remove yourself as the bottleneck.

Marty Fahncke: Even if you never sell your company, you'll build a stronger, healthier business.

Marty Fahncke: That's the real objective.

What's Next

Anna Covert: What's next for you?

Marty Fahncke: I'm continuing to help business owners prepare for successful exits through advisory work, speaking, and my book, Boomers Sell the Business.

Marty Fahncke: My mission is helping entrepreneurs maximize the value of the businesses they've worked so hard to build.

How to Connect with Marty

Anna Covert: How can people get in touch with you?

Marty Fahncke: The easiest place is my website at WestboundRoad.com.

Marty Fahncke: You can also connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook, and my book Boomers Sell the Business is available online.

Closing Thoughts

Anna Covert: Marty, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experience.

Marty Fahncke: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Anna Covert: If you haven't already, please subscribe to The Covert Code Podcast. Every week we bring you conversations with entrepreneurs, innovators, and industry leaders to help you grow both personally and professionally.

Anna Covert: Until next time, I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels.

Anna Covert: Aloha.

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Episode 119 – Dr. Annu Navani

By |2026-07-14T20:25:27+00:00June 25th, 2026|Author, Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Future of Healthcare: How AI and Regenerative Medicine Are Changing Medicine Forever

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Dr. Annu Navani to discuss the future of healthcare and how artificial intelligence, regenerative medicine, longevity science, and personalized care are transforming what healing may look like in the years ahead.

Dr. Navani is the founder and Chief Medical Officer of Le Reve Wellness, Chief Medical Officer at Boomerang Healthcare, a Stanford adjunct faculty member, and the author of the upcoming Forbes Books title Health Recoded: A Physician’s Guide to Intelligent Healthcare.

This conversation was fascinating because it explored a question many patients, doctors, and innovators are asking right now:

What if healthcare could become more predictive, more personalized, and more preventative?

Why Healthcare Needs to Change

One of the biggest themes from our conversation was that healthcare is still largely reactive.

Too often, people wait until disease, degeneration, or chronic pain appears before treatment begins. By that point, the system is already working from behind.

Dr. Navani believes the future of medicine should move earlier in the process. Instead of simply treating symptoms after they appear, emerging technologies may help identify risks years before serious health conditions develop.

This shift from reactive care to proactive care could completely change how patients experience medicine.

The Role of AI in Intelligent Healthcare

Artificial intelligence is already beginning to reshape healthcare.

Dr. Navani shared how AI can help analyze biomarker data, imaging, lifestyle factors, family history, and patient behavior to create more personalized healthcare plans.

The goal is not to replace physicians.

The goal is to give doctors better tools.

AI can help identify patterns, predict risks, and support treatment decisions, but clinical expertise remains essential. Human judgment, patient context, and physician experience still matter deeply.

This aligns with many of the AI conversations we explore on The Covert Code: the most powerful use of AI is not replacing people but helping experts make better decisions.

Personalized Medicine Is the Future

One of the most important takeaways from this episode was the need for personalized medicine.

Dr. Navani explained that every patient is different. Genetics, weight, biology, lifestyle, health history, and risk factors all influence how someone responds to treatment.

Instead of a one-size-fits-all model, healthcare is moving toward more customized care.

That means treatments may increasingly be designed around the individual patient rather than the average patient.

For patients, this could mean better outcomes, fewer unnecessary treatments, and a more precise path toward long-term health.

Regenerative Medicine and the Body’s Ability to Heal

Regenerative medicine was another major focus of the conversation.

Dr. Navani discussed platelet-rich plasma, growth factors, exosomes, stem cells, and other therapies that may help support healing and prevent further degeneration.

In her work with spine, orthopedic, and musculoskeletal care, regenerative medicine is especially important because the goal is not only to treat pain but also to improve function and quality of life.

She described her philosophy simply:

Find it, fix it, and move it.

That means identifying the root problem, addressing it, and helping the patient return to movement and function.

Can Humans Live to 120?

One of the most interesting parts of the episode was our conversation about longevity.

Dr. Navani believes that with current knowledge, many people may be able to live longer and healthier lives, potentially reaching 120 years.

But the goal is not simply extending lifespan.

The goal is extending healthspan.

Living longer only matters if people can remain active, functional, independent, and mentally sharp.

That is why lifestyle still matters. Diet, exercise, sleep, and stress management remain foundational for longevity, even as advanced therapies continue to evolve.

Preventative Medicine Starts at Home

While the conversation included advanced technologies, Dr. Navani also emphasized simple daily choices.

What we eat, how we move, how we sleep, and how we manage stress all affect long-term health.

Many people look for complex solutions, but prevention often begins with basic lifestyle habits.

Clean nutrition, regular movement, quality sleep, and stress reduction remain some of the most powerful tools available.

Technology may help us see the risks earlier, but daily behavior still shapes the outcome.

Pain Management Must Be Multidisciplinary

Dr. Navani also shared important insight into pain management.

Chronic pain is not just a symptom. It can become a disease syndrome that affects every part of a person’s life, including family, work, movement, mood, and independence.

That is why pain management must be multidisciplinary.

Medication may have a role in some cases, but it cannot be the only strategy. Interventional procedures, regenerative therapies, physical therapy, meditation, nutrition, cognitive behavioral therapy, and lifestyle support may all play a role in restoring function.

The ultimate goal is not just reducing pain.

The goal is improving quality of life.

The Challenge of Access

One of the most difficult parts of this conversation was access.

Many emerging therapies are expensive and not always covered by insurance. That means some of the most promising treatments may only be available to people who can afford them out of pocket.

Dr. Navani believes this has to change.

If preventative and regenerative medicine can reduce long-term healthcare costs and improve outcomes, then the system must find better ways to make these therapies accessible.

That may require policy changes, insurance changes, clinical trials, regulatory support, and new models of care.

The Future of Healthcare Is Intelligent

The future of healthcare may look very different from the system many patients experience today.

It may be more predictive.

More personalized.

More preventative.

More integrated.

And more focused on helping people live healthier for longer.

Dr. Navani’s work points toward a future where patients are empowered with better information, physicians are supported by smarter tools, and medicine becomes less about reacting to disease and more about preventing it.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear the full conversation with Dr. Annu Navani, visit The Covert Code Podcast.

You can also learn more about Dr. Navani at AnnuNavani.com, explore Le Reve Wellness, or connect with her on LinkedIn and Instagram.

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Anna Covert is the host of The Covert Code Podcast and the author of The Covert Code – Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing and The Solar Coaster. With over two decades of experience in digital marketing and business strategy, Anna has worked with top-tier companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM and leads Covert Communication, Hawaii’s largest digital agency.

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Transcript: The Future of Healthcare — How AI and Regenerative Medicine Are Changing Medicine Forever

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Dr. Annu Navani


Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu.

Anna Covert [00:00:12]: This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is the future of healthcare and how artificial intelligence and regenerative medicine are changing medicine forever.

Anna Covert [00:00:26]: My special guest is Dr. Annu Navani, founder and Chief Medical Officer of Le Reve Wellness, Chief Medical Officer at Boomerang Healthcare, Stanford faculty member, and author of the upcoming Forbes Books title Health Recoded: A Physician's Guide to Intelligent Healthcare.

Anna Covert [00:00:51]: Thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Annu Navani [00:00:55]: Thank you, Anna. It's wonderful to be here.

The Journey Into Medicine

Anna Covert: I always like to start with the CliffsNotes version. How did you get from where you were to where you are today?

Dr. Navani: My journey into medicine began very early. I've always been fascinated by how the human body works and how we can help people heal. Over the years, I became increasingly interested not only in treating disease but in understanding why disease develops in the first place.

Dr. Navani: That curiosity eventually led me toward pain management, regenerative medicine, longevity, and intelligent healthcare systems.

Why Healthcare Must Change

Anna Covert: One of the things we discussed is that our healthcare system tends to be reactive rather than proactive.

Dr. Navani: Exactly. We often wait until patients become very sick before intervening. By then, disease has frequently progressed significantly. We need to move toward prevention, early detection, and personalized care.

Dr. Navani: The future of medicine is identifying risk factors earlier and helping patients make changes before serious illness develops.

The Role of Artificial Intelligence

Anna Covert: AI is impacting every industry. How do you see it affecting healthcare?

Dr. Navani: AI has enormous potential. It can analyze large amounts of patient data, identify patterns, and support physicians in making better decisions.

Dr. Navani: The goal is not to replace physicians. The goal is to give physicians better tools to help patients.

Dr. Navani: Human judgment, compassion, and clinical experience remain essential.

Personalized Medicine

Dr. Navani: Every patient is unique. Their genetics, lifestyle, environment, and medical history all influence health outcomes.

Dr. Navani: Personalized medicine allows us to tailor treatment plans to each individual rather than relying on generalized approaches.

Anna Covert: That seems like one of the biggest shifts happening right now.

Dr. Navani: Absolutely.

Regenerative Medicine

Anna Covert: Can you explain regenerative medicine?

Dr. Navani: Regenerative medicine focuses on helping the body heal itself. This includes therapies such as platelet-rich plasma, growth factors, and stem-cell-based treatments.

Dr. Navani: Our philosophy is simple: find it, fix it, and move it.

Dr. Navani: We want patients to regain function, improve quality of life, and return to the activities they enjoy.

Can Humans Live to 120?

Anna Covert: One of the most fascinating questions we discussed was longevity.

Dr. Navani: The science of longevity continues to advance. Many researchers believe longer, healthier lives are possible.

Dr. Navani: The goal isn't simply to extend lifespan. The goal is to extend healthspan so people remain active, engaged, and healthy for more years.

Lifestyle Still Matters

Dr. Navani: Technology is important, but lifestyle remains foundational.

Dr. Navani: Nutrition, movement, sleep, stress reduction, and social connection continue to play enormous roles in health outcomes.

Dr. Navani: We cannot overlook the basics.

The Future of Healthcare

Anna Covert: If you look ahead ten years, what does healthcare look like?

Dr. Navani: I believe it becomes more personalized, more preventative, and more intelligent.

Dr. Navani: Patients become more informed. Physicians have better tools. Technology supports decision-making. Healthcare becomes proactive rather than reactive.

Dr. Navani: Ultimately, we help people live healthier lives for longer.

Final Thoughts

Anna Covert: What advice would you give someone listening today?

Dr. Navani: Take ownership of your health. Ask questions. Be proactive. Focus on prevention. The decisions you make every day matter.

Anna Covert: Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Navani: Thank you. It was wonderful speaking with you.

Anna Covert: If you have not yet subscribed, please do so. We continue to bring you industry experts and thought leaders helping you succeed both online and offline.

Anna Covert: I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

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Why Leaders Must Be More Visible, Vocal, and Vulnerable to Win Consumer Trust

By |2026-06-26T19:47:43+00:00June 25th, 2026|In The Media|

Consumers are more skeptical about corporate messaging than ever before — a trust quotient that’s been trending downward for some time.

Perhaps that shouldn’t be surprising. Poll the American public and you’ll likely find an erosion of trust in numerous areas of society. For decades, Gallup has tracked a deterioration in trust of nearly all institutions, from government to religion to the media to big business.

The Edelman Trust Barometer brings similar discouraging news for people in positions of authority. Business leaders are not exempt, with 68% of Americans saying they worry that business leaders purposely mislead people by saying things they know are false or gross exaggerations.

Clearly, this trend is worrisome for brands and their messaging, and it is one of the reasons today’s entrepreneurs, CEOs, and other business leaders can’t afford to be invisible, remaining hidden away and sending company spokespeople in their stead. People want to know who you are and what you stand for. A decade ago, it still felt appropriate — even admirable — for leaders to keep a lower profile and let the brand itself take the lead. There was even a belief that drawing attention to yourself was ego-driven or self-serving.

That’s not the world we live in anymore. Today, if you’re not willing to lead from the front—visibly, vocally, and vulnerably—people don’t trust you. The leaders who will win in the next decade are those willing to step forward, share their perspective openly, and create real dialogue with their audience.

And once you walk into the limelight, you might not find it all that bad — especially once you grow in confidence as you gain experience in being front and center, rather than in the background.

Your Message and AI

Trust in businesses and business leaders probably hasn’t been helped by artificial intelligence, but AI may have carved out an opportunity for those trying to establish their authority. If nothing else, AI may have forced the hand of many corporate leaders.

How so?

As more content is AI-generated and automated, authenticity becomes premium. The more artificial the landscape feels, the more valuable a human signal becomes. So bottom line, if you’re not shaping your narrative, the algorithm will shape it for you.

One approach to building authority that I’ve used myself is to focus less on the volume of content and more on platforms that build credibility: writing books, podcasting, and long-form conversations with industry leaders. Those formats create deeper trust and attract the right audience organically.

When you build authority first, the business model becomes much more durable — and the opportunities that follow are often bigger than anything you could have planned.

Your Message and Ethical Use of Data

Of course, there are other ways for you and your brand to either gain or lose the trust of consumers — including the ways in which you use consumer data. That data is incredibly valuable, but it can also be a slippery slope if it’s misused.

Too many companies are chasing shortcuts by buying third-party data or aggressively mining first-party data in ways that ultimately damage trust. The modern consumer is already overwhelmed with emails, texts, calls, DMs, and ads. Assuming people will be pleased to hear from you simply because they might be interested in your product is a fantasy. As one person, frustrated with their interaction with a business, posted on LinkedIn recently: “I signed up to try your tool… not to get 16 emails in three days.”

Rather than inundating consumers with information about your brand, the smarter strategy is attraction rather than intrusion. Know who you are as a brand, understand who your audience is, and place your message where they can discover you naturally instead of forcing your way into their inbox. Building your authority in your industry falls neatly into that approach.

Leaders also need to recognize that the old tactics carry real risk today. Over-emailing, mass texting, aggressive cold outreach, and poorly managed call center strategies can backfire quickly, not only damaging your reputation but even affecting the health of your domain and deliverability if (and when) you are flagged for SPAM.

The most sustainable approach is ethical marketing: know yourself, know your audience, and build systems that invite people into your ecosystem rather than chasing them across the internet.

As the leader, make yourself a visible face of the company, someone whose insights and knowledge are shared with the world, whether you are speaking at an event, being interviewed on a podcast, penning an op-ed for a newspaper, or writing a book.

In that way, you can begin to build trust, and given that our world is flooded with automation and noise, trust is the only signal that still converts.

Article from: International Business Times

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Episode 118 – Charlene Rose

By |2026-06-19T03:00:30+00:00June 18th, 2026|Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

The Human Advantage: Creating Income AI Can’t Replace

As artificial intelligence continues transforming nearly every industry, many people are asking the same question:

What jobs, businesses, and opportunities will still thrive in an AI-powered world?

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with entrepreneur, choreographer, performer, and Airbnb host Charlene Rose to discuss why authentic human experiences may become even more valuable as technology advances.

Charlene has built multiple businesses around creativity, passion, and personal connection, including her dance company, Living Room to Ballroom, and her themed Airbnb experience, Old Hollywood Lodge.

Following Passion Instead of a Traditional Roadmap

One of the most compelling aspects of Charlene’s entrepreneurial journey is that she never followed a traditional business plan.

She began as a dancer and performer before discovering opportunities that naturally evolved into businesses.

Rather than chasing trends, she focused on what energized her most.

That passion eventually attracted other people who wanted similar experiences, creating the foundation for her dance company.

This philosophy mirrors what many successful entrepreneurs discover over time: business opportunities often emerge when you become deeply committed to something you genuinely love.

How Passion Creates Business Opportunities

According to Charlene, identifying a business opportunity doesn’t always begin with market research.

Sometimes it starts with paying attention.

When she began sharing her passion for dance, people repeatedly expressed interest in learning, performing, and gaining confidence through movement.

Those signals became the foundation for Living Room to Ballroom.

Instead of simply teaching dance, Charlene created an experience that allows women to perform, build friendships, increase confidence, and challenge themselves in new ways.

The lesson is simple:

Pay attention to what people consistently ask you about.

The opportunity may already be sitting in front of you.

The Power of Creating an Experience

The same philosophy guided the creation of Old Hollywood Lodge.

Rather than offering another generic Airbnb rental, Charlene designed an immersive experience inspired by classic Hollywood glamour.

Guests don’t simply rent a room.

They step into a themed environment that feels unique and memorable.

This is an important lesson for business owners.

In crowded markets, products often compete on price.

Experiences compete on emotion.

The more memorable your experience becomes, the more likely customers are to share it and return.

Why AI May Increase Demand for Human Experiences

One of the most fascinating parts of our conversation focused on artificial intelligence.

While many professionals worry about AI replacing jobs, Charlene sees a different future.

She believes people will increasingly seek authentic, real-world experiences as digital content becomes more artificial.

Live performances.

Dance classes.

Community events.

Travel experiences.

Personal interaction.

These are all things AI struggles to replicate.

As technology becomes more powerful, genuine human connection may become even more valuable.

This aligns with many conversations we’ve had on The Covert Code Podcast about the future of work and the importance of developing skills that emphasize communication, creativity, empathy, and community.

Commitment Still Matters

Charlene also shared an insightful observation about generational shifts.

Many younger audiences are interested in experiences but often struggle with long-term commitment.

Dance, performance, and mastery require repetition, practice, and dedication.

While social media can create the illusion of instant success, genuine expertise still requires effort.

The entrepreneurs who succeed will be the ones who remain committed long after the initial excitement fades.

Trusting Your Intuition

Throughout the conversation, one theme appeared repeatedly: intuition.

Charlene believes many of her opportunities emerged because she followed what genuinely excited her rather than what seemed practical on paper.

That doesn’t mean ignoring strategy.

It means allowing passion and intuition to help guide decision-making.

Often the next opportunity reveals itself only after taking action on the current one.

Final Thoughts

The future may belong to those who can combine technology with uniquely human experiences.

AI will continue transforming industries, improving efficiency, and changing how work gets done.

But creativity, connection, performance, storytelling, hospitality, and community remain deeply human pursuits.

Charlene’s journey demonstrates that some of the most resilient businesses are built around things technology cannot easily replace.

Passion.

Experience.

Authenticity.

Connection.

To hear the full conversation with Charlene Rose, visit The Covert Code Podcast.

CONNECT WITH CHARLENE ROSE

Charlene Rose

Living Room to Ballroom

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Transcript: Why Human Experiences Will Thrive in an AI World

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Charlene Rose


Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu. This week on The Covert Code Podcast, the topic is why human experiences will thrive in an AI world.

Anna Covert [00:00:21]: My very special guest is Charlene Rose, an entrepreneur, actor, hand model, and choreographer who has built a life and businesses rooted in passion and creativity.

Anna Covert [00:00:32]: She is the founder of Living Room to Ballroom, a professional dance company that helps people step into new challenges and create new opportunities for development. She is also the visionary behind Old Hollywood Lodge, a unique Airbnb location with a very interesting story that we're going to dive into.

Anna Covert [00:00:49]: Thanks so much for being here today.

Charlene Rose [00:00:55]: Thank you for having me. You're beautiful. What did you call it?

Anna Covert [00:00:58]: Battleship. This is my battleship.

Charlene Rose [00:01:00]: I love it. Thank you for having me.

Anna Covert [00:01:03]: To get us started, I like to ask all of our guests for the CliffsNotes version. You're very unique and different than some other guests, which is exciting. How did you get from where you were to where you are now as this interesting entrepreneur?

Charlene Rose [00:01:16]: I started as a dancer. I went to college for dance and musical theater. How I became an entrepreneur and businessperson kind of just happened, not in a traditional way. I didn't follow a specific roadmap. It was more about following my intuition and my passion, what ignites me.

Charlene Rose [00:01:44]: Step by step along the way, the roadmap presented itself. I came to LA, was competing, and then I started my dance company because it was something I was passionate about. People latched onto it and said, “I want to do that too.” I saw a need and developed a business out of it.

Charlene Rose [00:02:14]: The Airbnb was a separate thing that came randomly because I wanted to buy a property, but it wasn't right for me to live in at the time. So I decided to make it an investment and use my creativity to make it something special and different.

Anna Covert [00:02:43]: Tell us more about your dance company. It's not traditional ballroom dance. What exactly is it, and what kind of audience are you attracting?

Charlene Rose [00:02:51]: It has gone through different phases, but it was mainly rooted in Latin dance. I'm a salsa dancer. First, I did partnering, but nowadays I'm just teaching women.

Charlene Rose [00:03:10]: During the pandemic, it was really difficult to do partner dancing because people had to stay six feet apart. I had a bachata partnering series that started right as everything shut down, and we continued it, but instead of live performances, we created videos.

Charlene Rose [00:03:45]: Now I teach women choreography, set up shows for them, pick costumes, and because of the pandemic, we also do professional videos. Within one series, they get to perform live and do a video shoot.

Charlene Rose [00:04:10]: At the same time, they're building camaraderie. Some of my team members become best friends for years. They're gaining confidence and learning skills. The two styles I do right now are salsa and burlesque.

Anna Covert [00:04:41]: So it's not just for people to learn to dance. It's more like they get a professional experience.

Charlene Rose [00:04:48]: It's not professional in the sense that my students are trying to become professionals. Most of my students are ages 40 to 70. These are women with careers who maybe danced when they were younger, maybe never danced, or always wanted to dance.

Charlene Rose [00:05:15]: I'm giving them the experience of having a professional opportunity to dance and be on stage. Some of my students have even gone on to get paid jobs from the experience.

Anna Covert [00:05:36]: How are you marketing your business?

Charlene Rose [00:05:38]: I market on social media, and a lot of my business is word of mouth. This is my 17th year, and many of my students have been with me for a very long time. Some have been with me at least ten years. They keep spreading the word, and from social media I get people coming in. It's a special thing that I offer.

Anna Covert [00:06:19]: For people listening who are trying to figure out how to use their passion to create business opportunities, what recommendations do you have on identifying a business opportunity linked to your passion?

Charlene Rose [00:06:32]: From my experience, it presented itself. I had a passion, and because I was doing my passion, people latched onto it. If you're putting yourself out there around what you're passionate about, people will see it and you'll find your people.

Charlene Rose [00:07:05]: Look at what people are saying. For me, people said, “I want to look like that. I want to dance like that. I want to feel like that.” That's what worked for me with dance instruction.

Charlene Rose [00:07:30]: With my Airbnb, I looked to see what was out there and what was standing out. That helped me choose something different with an aesthetic people wanted.

Anna Covert [00:08:01]: What makes it different?

Charlene Rose [00:08:03]: Mine has an Old Hollywood theme. I use vintage decor, and throughout the house there are images of old Hollywood stars. You feel like you're going back in time.

Charlene Rose [00:08:24]: People want an experience. There are so many Airbnbs that look the same. The ones doing well and standing out had something different. It made it more of an experience. It's exciting to go to this place. You're not just going to an Airbnb.

Anna Covert [00:09:42]: How have the fires in Hollywood affected your business?

Charlene Rose [00:09:44]: It didn't really affect my business. My clients weren't in that area. I'm in West LA, and the places most affected were the Palisades and Altadena. LA is very big and spread out.

Charlene Rose [00:10:40]: It was crazy during that time. I was at my friend's place trying to get things out of her apartment because the fire kept moving. It was very smoky, to the point where I almost left town. But as far as actual damage, it was in specific areas.

Anna Covert [00:11:28]: Your Airbnb wasn't impacted?

Charlene Rose [00:11:34]: No. If anything, I got people from the fires who wanted to get away.

Anna Covert [00:11:38]: How do you think AI is going to impact the industries you're in?

Charlene Rose [00:11:44]: I feel lucky because I don't think it will really impact me negatively. In fact, I feel like my businesses will thrive because of AI. People are going to want more in-person experiences. They're going to get tired of seeing AI images and AI videos and not knowing what's real.

Charlene Rose [00:12:15]: Dance fills that need for in-person connection. I'm here right with you. Even the touch aspect of dancing creates connection.

Anna Covert [00:12:37]: Not in your dance right now?

Charlene Rose [00:12:38]: Not in my specific dance right now, but I'm still involved in that world and could get back into partnering. Even with live performances, which I also provide, and immersive events with performances and live music, every part of it is in person.

Anna Covert [00:13:18]: People are starved for authenticity and realism, and it's only getting more important.

Charlene Rose [00:14:28]: People are going to get tired of the boxed AI sound. They're going to want live experiences. In that aspect, I feel like I'm in a good place as far as AI goes. The Airbnb is also a place you go to.

Anna Covert [00:14:52]: Are algorithms being affected? Online search is being impacted directly by AI. Are you advertising through Airbnb?

Charlene Rose [00:15:17]: Not that I know of. I'm consistently booked, so whatever is happening with the algorithm or AI is still working for me.

Charlene Rose [00:15:31]: I'm on Airbnb, Booking.com, and Vrbo. I'm probably 80 to 90 percent booked. I want to start using ads because I have something unique and feel like I could price it at a higher level.

Anna Covert [00:16:21]: I probably wouldn't do Facebook ads because of all the fraud.

Charlene Rose [00:16:24]: I didn't know that.

Anna Covert [00:16:37]: You're unique because people are actively going somewhere. They have dates, they want to book something. They're very low in the purchase funnel. Facebook is not usually where they're looking for a place to stay.

Anna Covert [00:17:10]: You could get boosting through the platforms you're already on, get featured, increase the price, and test that. That is typically the better way to go.

Charlene Rose [00:17:22]: I think that's what I'll do.

Anna Covert [00:17:22]: There are AI changes coming to these algorithms. Airlines already recognize behavior and charge differently based on user patterns, location, and time of day. The same types of things can apply in travel and lodging.

Anna Covert [00:18:43]: You're in a really good spot. Anything with a keyboard is in the first wave of AI impact. Eventually, robots may do more physical tasks, but dance instruction is probably safe for a while.

Charlene Rose [00:19:18]: I think that's pretty safe.

Anna Covert [00:19:21]: People should think about following their passion while protecting themselves. Your current customers for your dance school have been around a long time, but if you target younger people, there may be interesting opportunities.

Charlene Rose [00:20:03]: With the younger generation, I would have to change things around. From what I've seen, they don't want to commit to anything, and with dance you have to commit.

Charlene Rose [00:20:31]: People may see an amazing dancer and think they want to do that, but they don't realize the hours of repetition, training, blood, sweat, and tears that go into it.

Anna Covert [00:20:59]: Or they take a picture of themselves and have AI do it for them.

Charlene Rose [00:21:01]: Exactly. There are AI videos where you can put your face on somebody else's body doing tricks. People are going to get tired of it. For the younger generation, I might do something more free-flowing, like dancing without the same level of commitment.

Anna Covert [00:21:37]: My dad was known as the cha-cha king. My parents did dance lessons together, and I loved dancing with my dad because he was a legit lead.

Anna Covert [00:22:10]: I think that's why line dancing has become popular again. You can dance by yourself, but there's coordination, difficulty, and everyone is together.

Charlene Rose [00:22:34]: That's a great thing because it doesn't require a lot of skill, but it's still fun. There's a market. You just have to figure it out and find the need.

Charlene Rose [00:23:48]: I have a very specific niche. I know exactly the type of people who are going to be into what I provide, and I know they'll be loyal once they join. I just have to get them into the class.

Anna Covert [00:24:18]: When we think about what is less affected by AI, it's things with your hands and feet, human things, crafts, performance, touch, love, and service.

Anna Covert [00:25:52]: People are going to be drawn toward real human engagement. That's dancing, collaborating, singing, performing, creativity, and what it means to be human.

Charlene Rose [00:26:14]: My brother does coding and is a little nervous, but from his experience AI still messes up, and he has to be hands-on with it.

Anna Covert [00:26:44]: That's called AI hallucination, where it gets off on a tangent. The more input you give it, the better it gets. What's missing right now is the human interface and communication. People need to know how to tell AI what they want.

Charlene Rose [00:27:16]: I use AI a lot with writing for my website and captions. It's crazy how smart it is. It hasn't been around in the general public for that long, and it's advancing quickly. It's kind of scary.

Charlene Rose [00:27:52]: If someone's business is potentially affected by AI, they should adjust so there is some kind of hands-on, person-to-person element.

Anna Covert [00:28:07]: It goes back to passion. If you're listening and worried about AI, think about what makes you happy. Maybe you love helping people, cooking, caregiving, crafts, or something else. You can make a business out of that.

Charlene Rose [00:29:21]: I believe in that 100 percent. Mindset is a big part of it. Making your own business is not a sure thing, but when you're aligned and go for it, things start to fall into place in wild ways.

Charlene Rose [00:30:01]: Some people are afraid, so they dip their foot in, but it doesn't work that way. You have to be 100 percent in it. With my Airbnb, I didn't know what I was doing. It was my first house purchase, but I did research and wasn't going into it blindly.

Charlene Rose [00:31:10]: I was renovating the house and doing heavy labor. At the same time, I booked a Beachbody program as a workout person in the video, which gave me extra money and helped me get strong. It came at the perfect time. That's an example of synchronicity.

Anna Covert [00:32:15]: Of all times, this is one of the easiest times to start your own business. Before, you needed an agency to create logos, websites, marketing plans, business plans, and more. Now you can use tools to create a lot of those things yourself and start testing ideas.

Charlene Rose [00:33:04]: Absolutely.

Anna Covert [00:33:04]: What's next for you? Are you going to expand your business or get another house?

Charlene Rose [00:33:15]: In the next five years, I think I would like to get another Airbnb. I enjoy hosting. I love getting reviews saying guests had a fabulous stay, loved the decor, and found it serene.

Charlene Rose [00:33:45]: Sometimes when you're on a path, other things come up. I didn't know I was an interior designer, but I had to be to make my place stand out. Now friends have asked me to do interior design for their places, so that could be something I pursue.

Charlene Rose [00:34:20]: Right now I have my Airbnb, my dance company, and my dad's construction business. I stay open to what feels like it ignites me.

Anna Covert [00:34:35]: Bashar has a formula that says if your higher self is guiding you, you act on your passion first. When that passion shifts, you follow the next passion, and synchronicities line up.

Charlene Rose [00:35:15]: Just follow what ignites you. Follow what feeds your soul and makes you excited. Whatever you're doing will take effort, but it becomes easier if you listen to that guidance.

Anna Covert [00:36:05]: How can people get ahold of you?

Charlene Rose [00:36:08]: I'm on Instagram and Facebook as Charlene Rose. My Airbnb is Old Hollywood Lodge, also on Instagram and Facebook. My dance instruction company is Living Room to Ballroom.

Anna Covert [00:36:23]: Great. We'll keep all those links in the feed and channel. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please tune in next week as I interview another industry expert on topics to help you succeed on and offline. If you have not yet subscribed, please subscribe to the channel. We're approaching 170,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha. I can't wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha.

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Episode 117 – Dave Gulas

By |2026-06-09T20:49:10+00:00June 11th, 2026|Get Your Geek On, Podcasts|

On this episode of The Covert Code Podcast, I sat down with Dave Gulas, entrepreneur, podcast host, and co-founder of EZDC 3PL, to discuss one of the biggest shifts happening in business today: the rise of founder-led selling.

For years, companies could rely on logos, corporate messaging, and brand recognition to attract customers. Today, that strategy is becoming less effective. Customers want to know who they’re buying from. They want transparency, authenticity, and a human connection.

Dave believes that founders can no longer hide behind their company name, and after our conversation, it’s difficult to disagree.

People Buy From People

One of the most important themes from our conversation was that people do business with people.

Customers want to understand the person behind the business. They want to know your values, your story, and why you started the company in the first place. Whether you’re selling software, professional services, e-commerce products, or logistics solutions, trust is still the foundation of every buying decision.

As someone who has spent more than two decades helping companies grow through digital marketing at Covert Communication, I’ve watched this trend accelerate significantly over the last few years. The companies seeing the greatest engagement are often the ones where the founder is visible and actively communicating with their audience.

People connect with people. They rarely connect with logos.

Why Personal Branding Matters More Than Ever

Dave shared how he entered the logistics industry and quickly realized that simply having a website and a service offering wasn’t enough. To compete with larger organizations, he needed to become visible.

That meant creating content. Attending trade shows. Launching a podcast. Sharing his experiences publicly. Most importantly, it meant becoming comfortable sharing his experiences publicly.

That journey eventually led to the creation of the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast, where Dave interviews entrepreneurs and explores the realities of building businesses beyond the highlight reels often portrayed on social media.

The result wasn’t overnight success. It was something more valuable: credibility.

This aligns closely with many of the authority-building concepts I’ve written about on AnnaCovert.com, where I’ve long advocated for founders to become active participants in their marketing rather than outsourcing their entire public presence.

The Fear of Visibility

One of the most significant barriers preventing founders from building their personal brand is fear.

Fear of criticism.

Fear of judgment.

Fear of saying the wrong thing.

Fear of not being perfect is another common concern.

Dave offered an interesting perspective on this issue. After creating content consistently, he realized something important: most people aren’t paying nearly as much attention as we think they are.

In fact, the bigger challenge isn’t criticism.

The bigger challenge is that people notice you at all.

In today’s crowded digital landscape, visibility requires consistency. Founders who wait until they feel comfortable often wait forever.

The better strategy is simple: start.

AI Is Making Authenticity More Valuable

One of the most fascinating parts of our conversation centered around artificial intelligence.

AI is changing everything from content creation to customer service, logistics, sales, and marketing. As businesses increasingly leverage AI-generated content, something remarkable is happening.

Authenticity is becoming more valuable.

People can sense lived experience.

They can tell when someone is speaking from real-world knowledge or simply repeating generic information.

That doesn’t mean founders should avoid AI. Quite the opposite.

AI can help organize ideas, generate outlines, summarize information, and improve efficiency. We discuss AI regularly on The Covert Code because it has become one of the most transformative business tools of our generation.

But AI works best when paired with genuine human insight.

Your story is still yours.

Your perspective still matters.

Your experiences still create differentiation.

Building Authority Starts With Small Steps

Many entrepreneurs assume they need to become influencers to build authority.

That’s simply not true.

Dave and I discussed several practical ways founders can begin establishing their personal brand immediately.

  • Secure your personal domain name.
  • Invest in professional headshots.
  • Update your LinkedIn profile.
  • Create consistency across social platforms.
  • Share lessons from your experience.
  • Participate in podcasts and interviews.
  • Develop a perspective.

Authority is rarely built through a single viral post.

It is built through repetition, consistency, and visibility over time.

Many of the strategies discussed in my book, The Covert Code: Mastering the Art of Digital Marketing, follow this same principle. Sustainable growth comes from consistently showing up and creating trust.

The Future Belongs to Visible Leaders

The era of faceless brands is fading.

As consumers become increasingly skeptical of corporate messaging and AI-generated content floods the internet, founders have an opportunity to differentiate themselves through authenticity.

The businesses that thrive over the next decade will likely be led by individuals who are willing to share their expertise, communicate their values, and build relationships directly with their audience.

Founder-led selling isn’t simply a marketing tactic.

It’s becoming a competitive advantage.

And for many entrepreneurs, it may become the most valuable asset they own.

Listen to the Full Episode

To hear my complete conversation with Dave Gulas about founder-led selling, personal branding, podcasting, AI, and building authority in today’s marketplace, listen to the full episode of The Covert Code Podcast.

You can also learn more about Dave and his work at DaveGulas.com and connect with him on LinkedIn.

Watch the full episode of The Covert Code Podcast featuring Lou Chatta and learn more about the future of AI-powered travel.

And if you’re interested in conversations around AI, authority, innovation, leadership, and the future of digital transformation, explore more episodes and articles at:

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Transcript: Founder-Led Selling and Why Faceless Brands Are Losing

Episode: The Covert Code Podcast

Host: Anna Covert

Guest: Dave Gulas


Anna Covert [00:00:04]: Aloha. My name is Anna Covert, and I'm coming to you from my battleship here on the beautiful island of Oahu. This week on The Covert Code, the topic is founder-led selling and why faceless brands are losing.

Anna Covert [00:00:18]: My very special guest is Dave Gulas. He's an entrepreneur, podcast host, and co-founder of EZDC 3PL. With over 20 years of experience in sales and marketing leadership, Dave has firsthand experience and really believes that it's no longer possible for someone to hide behind their company name.

Anna Covert [00:00:38]: Personal brand is of utmost importance, and today we're diving into how you can lead from the front with founder-led selling. Thanks so much for being here today, Dave.

Dave Gulas [00:00:51]: Hey Anna, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Anna Covert [00:00:55]: To get us started, can you give us the CliffsNotes version of the Dave story? How did you get from where you were to where you are, and tell us more about EZDC 3PL?

Dave Gulas [00:01:04]: Absolutely. I'm a lifelong sales guy. I've been in sales my entire adult life. Most of that time was in the medical and pharmaceutical space. In 2022, a good friend of mine and I co-founded EZDC 3PL because we saw a gap in the market where emerging ecommerce brands were being left out by the big-box players in the 3PL space.

Dave Gulas [00:01:38]: We had the means available to start a 3PL, so we jumped in and did it with a lot of personal experience and high-touch customer service from our days in pharma. We thought it would be a great fit for logistics.

Dave Gulas [00:01:55]: We've been growing that business for almost four years. We have two locations in Kentucky and are rapidly growing. I also host the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast. I've been doing that almost three years, and it's really about the entrepreneurial journey, not the Instagram highlight reel, but the raw reality of what it's like to be an entrepreneur.

Anna Covert [00:02:09]: It is a wild road. Can you tell us what 3PL is?

Dave Gulas [00:02:15]: It stands for third-party logistics. If you have an ecommerce brand and you're growing and scaling, most start with humble beginnings out of their home or maybe a small office. As they grow, they reach a graduation point where they need to outsource logistics.

Dave Gulas [00:02:34]: Instead of renting a warehouse, managing staff, paying for expensive software, and negotiating carrier contracts, they outsource to a company that specializes in logistics. That lets them leverage economies of scale and focus on their zone of genius so they can continue to grow.

Anna Covert [00:02:56]: This is so common. We actually have a client coming over in a couple hours who started a pancake company, and we were just talking about this. At what point does he stop fulfilling orders himself? This is a real need for entrepreneurs.

Dave Gulas [00:03:11]: Absolutely. You'll know when fulfillment becomes such a headache and so overwhelming that it's inhibiting growth and the other business development activities a founder should be doing. If they're running back and forth shipping packages or spending too much time in the warehouse, that's typically when it's time to outsource.

Anna Covert [00:03:38]: Absolutely. We have another client who could have grown much faster had they had a company like yours. Whenever she goes on vacation or gets distracted with in-store samplings, orders stack up and people cancel. It's so much easier to keep a customer than get a new customer, so it's critical that orders are sent out fast and without issues.

Dave Gulas [00:04:22]: One hundred percent. We're in the age of Amazon where everyone wants everything right now. You want the order confirmed fast, flowing from Shopify to the fulfillment center, and shipped right away. The customer expects that automatically. Anything less can create a serious problem in terms of keeping that customer.

Anna Covert [00:04:49]: Let's jump deeper into the idea of personal brand and founder-led sales. Tell me about your vision behind that.

Dave Gulas [00:05:05]: It started for me when I got into logistics. Previously, in pharmaceuticals, it was traditional B2B sales. In logistics, it's wide open and you never know where customers will come from. It's hard to call people and ask if they're looking to move warehouses. You need to be visible and be found when people have that need.

Dave Gulas [00:05:42]: It hit me when I went to my first industry trade show and saw how big the other companies were, what they were doing, and how they were marketing. I wasn't used to content creation, so I had to learn quickly. I was uncomfortable and scared at first, but I knew I had to do it.

Dave Gulas [00:06:17]: As I kept doing it, I became more comfortable. Eventually, I started a podcast and interviewed other entrepreneurs. I expanded my content, did guest interviews, and through that, people got to know me. It attracted attention and has been instrumental for business growth.

Dave Gulas [00:06:45]: I think it's essential for a founder growing their brand to be visible because people do business with people. They want to know who you are. In the age of social media and instant access, you can no longer hide behind the company name.

Anna Covert [00:07:11]: Absolutely. Even five or six years ago, it might have seemed endearing for someone to say they wanted the team to shine and didn't want to be the face. But that is not the way you're going to help the team. You must lead internally and externally. If you're not comfortable now, you need to become comfortable.

Dave Gulas [00:08:18]: One thing you mentioned is people being scared and the spotlight effect. We think everyone is looking at us and wondering what they'll think. What I realized when I started creating content is how hard it is to get attention. Everyone is wrapped up in themselves, their own problems, and their own businesses.

Anna Covert [00:09:05]: It may not be perfect, but that's authentic. With AI and everything happening, people are craving authentic realness.

Dave Gulas [00:09:14]: Yes. I have this podcast, and I've been press credentialed at numerous trade shows. I walk the floor doing man-on-the-street interviews. At one show, ABC Kids Expo in Vegas, it was all these kids and baby brands. Most of the people I interviewed were mompreneurs who saw a problem and started a business.

Dave Gulas [00:09:55]: It was almost universal. They had this idea in their head and turned it into a tangible product or business. They kept going because they believed in their vision. Entrepreneurs face all kinds of challenges, but the ones that succeed are the ones who don't give up.

Anna Covert [00:10:54]: There is so much noise out there. In digital marketing, the stats are incredible around how many ads we're exposed to every day. You have to stand out, and you have to say it more than once. People do not remember anything, and you have to keep reminding them why to pick you.

Dave Gulas [00:11:31]: One hundred percent. People ask, “What do I say?” Be you. Say what's true to you. Say what your values are and what your unique proposition is as a business. When you communicate that consistently, the right people will be attracted to it.

Anna Covert [00:12:02]: What do you think are some misconceptions or reluctances about founders promoting themselves?

Dave Gulas [00:12:09]: I'm shocked when I go to a founder at a show and ask if they want to do an interview, a free chance to promote their business, and they say no. I think, “It's your business. How do you not want to tell people about it?”

Dave Gulas [00:12:40]: People worry they'll look stupid, or wonder what people will think. I also see people say they're not good at sales and will outsource that. But as the founder, it's your baby. Who will communicate your vision better than you? No one. It's part of the job.

Anna Covert [00:13:13]: Why are you in this? What do you do better than others? What core value proposition are you bringing? You wouldn't have gotten into this business if you didn't believe you could do something others aren't fulfilling.

Dave Gulas [00:13:25]: One hundred percent.

Anna Covert [00:13:26]: With tools like AI, if you are uncomfortable, you can ask ChatGPT to ask you questions and train you in your own sales dialogue. You can say, “I'm going to be on this podcast, ask me sample questions,” and it will help you prepare.

Dave Gulas [00:14:09]: As much as I've done with AI, I've never done that. I'm going to try that for the next podcast I'm on.

Anna Covert [00:14:17]: Your podcast is becoming a top-ranked show. What do you think people are most drawn to?

Dave Gulas [00:14:29]: I started it because I was having valuable conversations with entrepreneurs, and that was the most important way I learned as a young founder. I thought if I put it in a podcast, the audience benefits, the guest gets exposure, and it helps me. It's a true win-win.

Dave Gulas [00:15:05]: The feedback I get is that people love hearing the real story. When you dive into a founder's journey, what really happened and how they overcame things, it resonates. Some of the stories are incredible. The people kept going, stayed true to their vision, and made it to the other side.

Anna Covert [00:15:58]: With AI being so disruptive, that kind of content feels even more important because AI is impacting everything. How do you think AI will impact logistics?

Dave Gulas [00:16:30]: We use it to optimize different things. Our software provider uses it to optimize routes through the warehouse with AI picking. We're also using it with internal development to build systems and tools that help us serve customers better.

Dave Gulas [00:17:03]: When we onboard a new customer, I can dump all my conversations and notes into AI, and it creates an onboarding document in seconds for my teams. There are all kinds of ways to use it.

Dave Gulas [00:17:25]: I'm a big believer in the human in the loop. Regardless of how good AI is, the supercomputer in your skull is still unmatched if you use it properly. We need intelligent humans using these tools to create the best possible outcomes.

Anna Covert [00:17:53]: I agree. AI is not right the first or second time, or even the third. For me, it's an opportunity to free up time to have more conversations, be more creative, and spend more time with clients while AI does some of the heavy lifting.

Dave Gulas [00:18:48]: One hundred percent.

Anna Covert [00:18:51]: What recommendations do you have for a founder listening right now who wants to break out of their comfort zone and establish a personal brand?

Dave Gulas [00:19:06]: Not to sound cliche, but just do it. Start wherever you are. I'm a big believer in messy, imperfect action. Get out of inertia, create momentum, stay in motion, and learn as you go.

Dave Gulas [00:19:30]: If it feels daunting or you don't know where to start, hire help. That's what I did. I knew I needed to do it, but I didn't know where to start. I hired a team to help me find my voice and push me.

Dave Gulas [00:20:05]: Anything that happens in your life can potentially become content. You have to be comfortable doing it, and the only way to get comfortable is to do it.

Anna Covert [00:21:02]: I agree. One of the first things people should do is see if they can buy their domain name. Claim it even if you're not using it today. Authorship is a great way to increase personal branding. Podcasting, being on podcasts, creating a podcast, and even a really great headshot matter.

Anna Covert [00:21:42]: Update your social profiles: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, whatever you're using. Make sure you have a vanity name if available. Everything should be consistent. That's a great place to begin cross-domain authority building.

Dave Gulas [00:22:11]: One hundred percent. Put a picture of you now. Make sure your profiles are consistent. On LinkedIn, make sure the company you list, especially if it's your own, is a verified company page with a logo. Check your profile, title, and positioning.

Anna Covert [00:23:37]: You can be successful.

Dave Gulas [00:23:38]: Love that.

Anna Covert [00:23:40]: What's next for Dave in 2026?

Dave Gulas [00:23:47]: We're in the middle of a busy sales season in the 3PL world, continually onboarding new clients. We've expanded our space, and I have more trade shows booked. I love to travel and meet more people. The podcast continues to grow, and I have more guest spots booked.

Anna Covert [00:24:41]: Thanks so much for being here. How can people get ahold of you and find your podcast?

Dave Gulas [00:24:45]: My podcast is Beyond Fulfillment, and it's on YouTube and everywhere podcasts are heard. You can find me at DaveGulas.com. For ecommerce 3PL services, go to EZDC3PL.com. LinkedIn is my main social platform, so reach out there.

Anna Covert [00:25:12]: Awesome, and we'll have all those links in the channel. Thanks so much for joining us today. If you have not yet subscribed, please do so. We're approaching 200,000 subscribers, and that is because of you and your aloha.

Anna Covert [00:25:30]: Please subscribe and continue to share this content with your friends and family so I can get more great guests like Dave to share their wisdom. I cannot wait to see you next week in the pixels. Aloha!

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